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  • Unidentified Haplopelma

    Hi all,

    Could somone please Id this spider. It was purchased as H.minax by my partner but we have doubts as it displays some noteable differences from my H.minax. For instance the carapace is raised from the central apodeme, over the prosoma to the ocular tubercle in a horn like fashion. Also the carapace has a definate green tinge and the patellas have faint stripes.

    Anyone got any ideas...Mr Hale????





    Regards

    Shot8un

  • #2
    This looks like what i ahve had as the real H. minax, but my ones did not have the white marks so distinct on the femurs, could just be a regional variety though.

    what does the male look like?

    Comment


    • #3
      Looks very minax to me too Ray (but then you know how reliable a photograph can be )

      Remember characteristics like the ocular arrangement, foveal groove and general carapace contours are not stable keys for identification in Asian theraphosids! You need to get a cast exuvium and check out the spermethecae - minax will have an undivided spermethecae with no clear dent (sp."aureopilosum" has a clear dent.)

      There are also key points for identification at the stridulating organ (arrangement of spines on coxa of palp prolateral) but I'll **** it up if I try and explain it properly

      Minax are generally JET black, but after a moult you will see a moss green carapace often bordered with slightly ginger setae (these are more prominent on sp."aureopilosum" which also often has an orange fringe of hairs on the outside edge of patella and tibia of the front legs) There is often a slight abdominal pattern, nowhere near as prominent as sp."longipedum", and the chelicerae may have a small brush of white hairs, but again not always. Sometimes the "knees"are distinctly paler, sometimes not. I've got 2 pictures of one of Volker's minax females, one premoult and one postmoult and they look like 2 completely different tarantulas, the colouration is not even similar!

      Minax and sp."aureopilosum" males are TOTALLY different as I recently found out, what you posted on Brum the other day looks like a minax male, the sp."aureopilosum" ones are like a tan colour with black tarsi, femora and palps.

      Hope this is of some use

      Comment


      • #4
        So if thats minax, whats this then? Completely different.



        Thanks in advance

        Shot8un

        Comment


        • #5
          A spider

          Comment


          • #6
            Now THAT looks like sp."aureopilosum". An online invert trader was selling these as "minax" a while ago but now seems to have genuine "minax"

            Remember minax is common (in the wild) it's just that for some reason South Thailand gets collected more then North, and minax is found only in the North (aureo's come from South)

            But in all honesty we're just making best guesses here. Do you have a cast exuvium from either spider?

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks Leon

              That gem of wisdom from Ray wasn't much help. The first female is in breeding condition and we have a male for her. The second “europilosum” is still sub adult but a male from the same clutch was sent to Rich as minax...and looked like a minax as well???

              This genus is in a mess isn't it, so confusing. As soon as i have a skin from either I will send them on to you.

              Many Thanks

              Shot8un

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Shot8un
                Thanks Leon

                That gem of wisdom from Ray wasn't much help. The first female is in breeding condition and we have a male for her. The second “europilosum” is still sub adult but a male from the same clutch was sent to Rich as minax...and looked like a minax as well???

                This genus is in a mess isn't it, so confusing. As soon as i have a skin from either I will send them on to you.

                Many Thanks

                Shot8un
                We all have our days with gems of wisdom I know I certainly do!

                So the male from the same batch of that is the one that Rich's minax munched? Perhaps that's why.....a lot of the time the male will give off the "wrong signals" if it's not the same species.

                You can probably do the ID yourself if the skin is a reasonable size.

                This is the difference you are looking for (excuse the crude pic, I don't draw in MSPaint as well as I do in real life!)



                Colour is handy for pointing us in the right direction sometimes, but when it gets to stuff like this it becomes pretty useless because of it's instability.
                Shame Rich didn't salvage the male, it could have been sent to Soren or Volker to confirm the species.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hello,

                  Just as well the male got eaten if it was a different species, I would hate to have been one of the poor sod, s that bought a haplopelma hybrid.

                  I am going to jump on my soap box again an use phrases like:-

                  "Just beacuse you bought it as species "X" does not mean it is."

                  "If you are not sure of the id then don,t breed with it"

                  "You cannot id a species from a photo" (Generally)

                  I am not accusing anyone in particular of doing this. My intention is not to offend, but to try to reiterate to people that there are many misidentified spiders in the hobby and that great care needs to be taken when breeding two spiders.

                  Regards,

                  Andy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Andy,
                    Just out of curiosity, how can anybody in this hobby be sure of a species id?? I'd guess that more then 99% of what we keep in this hobby hasn't been properly ID'd (keyed out by those with enough experience to do so). I'm wondering who in this hobby may be experienced enough to perform such a task on the Asian theraphosids. Do all responsible breeders send their stock to people such as Volker?? Is Volker (or anyone who claims they can ID the Asians) up to the task?? Given that most of the Asian material is still wild caught this I would imagine is quite an issue. I believe what has ended up over your side of the pond as Selenocosmia stirlingi is more then likely a combination of at least two species(and I'm not talking about Volkers recent findings on this species). I believe that Volker and Rick West are in disagreement about the hobby ID of Lampropelma violaceopes. Apparently the paratypes of this species were collected at different locations and are probably a combination of two distinctly different species. The genus Haplopelma is a mess and while there is a lot of postulation about other Asian species ID, there is nothing concrete to go off. This list is endless....

                    I understand your point and am in total agreement with you, but I'd think it's an impossible ideal given what little we know at the moment.

                    And regarding Ray's response, that's about as good an ID as you're going to get, that spider could indeed be any number of Asian species, a photo is totally useless.

                    Cheers,
                    Steve Nunn
                    Australian Tarantulas website
                    http://www.thedailylink.com/australiantarantulas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi everyone...
                      Do all responsible breeders send their stock to people such as Volker?? Is Volker (or anyone who claims they can ID the Asians) up to the task??
                      I can't answer that question but any responsible hobbyist has to cling onto the idea that there IS someone out there that can sort it out.

                      From my point of view (with developments like the internet), there seems to be more and more new species being imported than ever before and we're in a worse situation than ever. It's a sad fact that irreversible damage has been done already when it comes to accidentally hybridising species in our care. Haplopelma, Hysterocrates and Brachypelma are the notable ones but it's probably occurred with most genera. In a time when everyone is debating whether it's right or wrong to collect spiders from the wild, it turns out that these are the only true pure species available. It's at times like this that it becomes clear how little we actually know about spiders and preserving a species. Ultimately tarantulas (along with every other species on the planet) are fooked and we're just wasting our time trying to do anything about it. A depressing thought, I know, but we live in anything but an ideal world. There's virtually no one trying to sort this mess out (I don't blame them) and I can quite safely say that it never will be - how many new species are still to be discovered, just waiting to add more problems to the mess?

                      Apologies for the rant but I've got to go back to work tomorrow after my xmas break - no wonder I'm sick
                      Guy...
                      www.giantspiders.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hello Steve,

                        I agree whole heartedly with your sentiment. (Although I don,t wish to be drawn into spider politics)

                        I too would suspect that 99% of the species in the hobby have not been properly identified.

                        As I am sure you are aware, we are now in the situation where we have "pet trade" species which bare no relation taxonomically to the type specimin of the particular species. I would go as far as to suggest that the majority of these "pet trade" spiders are of no use taxonomically due to hybridization.

                        My point is that those who undertake to breed a species need to be as vigilant as possble to keep the "pet trade " species as "clean" as possible.

                        I feel the only way we as as a hobby can keep a species "clean" is to set up breeding groups of spiders where we can trace the lineage back to the origional import of WC. (Some sort of pedigree scheme or similar) However, I acknowledge that this would never work in practice.

                        To coin a phrase from an esteemed colleague of mine:-

                        We are "fooked".

                        Regards,

                        Andy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Andy,
                          I wouldn't want to get into the politics of it either, I think there's enough bad feelings going around with the big guns to get involved. Unfortunately, this hobby is turning "suicidal" because of it. I mean you have folks who import, but won't give out location data (to "corner" the market), collectors who do the same, hobbyists who loan out type specimens and keep them (this stops others, including true taxonomists, from studying the specimens), people who think they know what they are talking about, but in reality have no clue, dealers creating new names to hype up their specimens, hobbyists labelling their spiders according to what they think is correct (but really again have no clue), etc and so on....

                          Regarding "pettrade"material, your view is spot on, look at the pet trade "Lasiodora cristata", it bares no resemblance to the type specimen and may not even belong in that genus. Haplopelma lividum was originally sold as L.violaceopes until fairly recently. This list is going to dramatically increase too (and unfortuantely along with it many new imports incorrectly labelled). Oh, while I'm thinking of it, what is your opinion of the description of Pamphobeteus petersi in TOW???

                          I've got to give Richard and Rogerio credit, thay have stuck with it while most other taxonomists won't touch the Theraphosidae with a ten foot pole (and they really can't be blamed).

                          I think the politics behind theraphosid classification is only going to go from bad to worse as more and more hobbyists jump on the taxonomical bandwagon.........

                          I also think Guy said it best

                          Cheers,
                          Steve

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello Steve.

                            Pamphobeteus petersi?????

                            First of all I would not like to openly denigrate others work, particually as I do not have the knowlege or ability to produce my own paper.

                            It is particually difficult for me to comment on this paper as my german is not good and I have recently lost my copy, so I am working from memory. (Richard G or Martin H Do you have a copy I can scrounge???)

                            The only comments I would care to make are:

                            Was it peer reviewed?

                            Was it compared against other types within the genus?

                            Has the genus been reviewed sufficently to provide accurate comparison?

                            Where are the type specimins of petersi now, and in what condition are they?

                            How many dead specimins were used to define the species?

                            As stated before, I am no taxonomist and my understanding of taxonomy is limited, so it is difficult for me to question those that have a greater understanding than myself.

                            Regards,

                            Andy.

                            P.S. My hat goes of to those with the talent and dedication that is needed to produce taxonomic work of a high standard.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Well, no comment regarding peer review of TOW as no comment is needed. As to how many theraphosids are described from exuvia with this publication I couldn't say. Another species description I find interesting from the same rag is Lasiorides rollini, but I won't get into it here. I appreciate your diplomacy

                              Thanks,
                              Steve
                              Australian Tarantulas website
                              http://www.thedailylink.com/australiantarantulas

                              Comment

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