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  • A. aurantiaca?

    Hi!

    Is this species really Avicularia aurantiaca? It was sold to me under that name as a spiderling.

    Thanks for your help!
    Matjaz


  • #2
    according to these photos, unless my eyes are mistaken, its not one...

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    • #3
      Avicularia Aurantiaca


      You have possibly Avicularia juruensis very nice specimen

      Cheers
      Brendan
      Cheers
      Brendan

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello Brendan,

        Originally posted by Aviculariinae
        Avicularia Aurantiaca

        You have possibly Avicularia juruensis very nice specimen
        what makes you think, that the one on your photo is A. aurantiaca and the one on Matjaz's photo might be A. juruensis?

        all the best,
        Martin
        »ARACHNE« – The Journal of the German Arachnology Society

        Comment


        • #5
          Something tells me Phenotypes are going to come into this (I haven't forgotten am still learning)

          The description of the colours in BAUER's paper for aurantiaca says orange-yellowish ring at the lower end of the metatarsus.Though these are not very bright on my specimen they can be clearly seen via the naked eye! + it was sold to me as Aurantiaca

          I did say possibly Juruensis because of the long white/grey tipped hairs which seems to be more predominant in this species.I think the specimen above maybe immature. Granted these two are just probably variants of each other.

          But the real problem to me is Urticans seems to have the same features and i think this is where Phenotypes is about to take over.

          Cheers
          Brendan

          Oh god i have a feeling im going to get my ass kicked here.
          Cheers
          Brendan

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi,

            Originally posted by Aviculariinae

            The description of the colours in BAUER's paper for aurantiaca says orange-yellowish ring at the lower end of the metatarsus.Though these are not very bright on my specimen they can be clearly seen via the naked eye!
            yellow rings you say ... like these? >>click here<<

            all the best,
            Martin
            »ARACHNE« – The Journal of the German Arachnology Society

            Comment


            • #7
              It's the same old story which came first the chicken or the egg or in this case who described it first!

              it could be Avicularia magdalenae (KARSCH, 1879) LOL

              Take your pick im wiling to wage all 3 are the same sp as Brendan said more than likely variants! familiar Patten emerging Avic avic , baraushauseni , metallica

              Taxonomically you must be sure you have covered all the different life cycle stages and phenotypes found in the population you have studied ( this not being the case with any of the aforementioned spp) in extreme cases it maybe difficult or impossible to find all the phena. meaning the different sexes, life cycle stages embryos instars juveniles seasonal variations in phenotype,and individual variants (Mayr 1969) that occur in the theraphosid you are attempting to describe. sexually dimorphic taxa, when only one sex has been described (e.g some theraphosids) can be particularly difficult and as we all know have lead to embarrassing mistakes in the past.

              There is not enough background work done while describing theraphosids
              e.g follow populations long enough and study them in enough depth biologically to figure out whether the variations (if any) represent a good species or subspecies of a geographically variable species or species complex.
              Taxonomists working on collected material alone cannot observe the processes of reproduction isolation or species formation in action! its all guess work and hear say

              References
              (Describing species practical taxonomic procedure for biologists Judith E Winston )

              (Principles of Systematic Zoology Mayr, Ernst)

              Comment


              • #8
                Hello Richard,

                Originally posted by RichardDegville
                It's the same old story which came first the chicken or the egg or in this case who described it first!

                it could be Avicularia magdalenae (KARSCH, 1879) LOL
                according to SCHMIDT (1995), Avicularia magdalenae (= Typhochlaena magdalena) sensu KARSCH 1879 is a synonym of Hapalopus formosus AUSSERER, 1875 => it's not an Avicularia at all! =
                (BTW, I am not talking about the species which has been sold in the pet trade in the past labelled as "A. magdalena" / "A. magdalenae")

                References:
                • SCHMIDT, G. (1995): Ist Typhlochlaena magdalena KARSCH, 1879 wirklich eine Avicularia? Arachnol. Mag. 3(2): 10-13.

                all the best,
                Martin
                »ARACHNE« – The Journal of the German Arachnology Society

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Martin

                  Avicularia aurantiaca FARMER, 1996
                  A misjudged bird spider from north Peru
                  Avicularia aurantiaca spec. n.
                  (Araneida: Theraphosidae: Aviculariinae)

                  Stefan farmer, 1996

                  Beginning of the 90's brought the Englishman a to date unknown Avicularia kind from north Peru to Ian WALLACE into the trade. It was called Avicularia magdalenae, since it was considered identical to a Species described from Colombia. Recently it becomes from some authors (Rick WEST, R.N. BAXTER 1993) Avicularia juruensis MELLO LEITAO, 1923 called.
                  The translation of the description of MELLO LEITAO, 1923 by Mrs. LUCAS of the Instituto Butantan as well as the two designs resulted in that the kind is identical from north Peru not to, although the discovery site agrees geographical.
                  After investigations of the Holotyps (museum for natural history, Berlin) by SCHMIDT it is certain that it concerns with kind of Colombia not around a Avicularia, but a Ischnocoline (SCHMIDT, 1994, 1995). The Peruvian alleged Avicularia magdalenae had to be renamed therefore.
                  Avicularia magdalenae sensu (SIMON) is a synonym of Hapalopus formosus AUSSERER, 1875 (SCHMIDT 1994).

                  Material and methods
                  1 female (Holotyp), offspring of animals, which WALLACE in north Peru collected, Exuvie of a female, 1 male (Paratyp).

                  The female is deposited after his death in the Senckenberg museum (Frankfurt/Main). The animals were kept in 70% alcohol. The Spermathek was prepared from the Exuvie and fixed on a slide. The estimations by sight and would be away with the help of the measuring eyepiece of the stereomicroscope were determined.

                  Derivato nominis:
                  With Avicularia aurantiaca it acts around a large Avicularia kind with very unpleasant and plentifully on the Opisthosoma and the spin warts existing attraction hair. With the male the Embolus is apically only weakly curved.

                  Results
                  Avicularia aurantiaca spec. n.

                  is this not what was used to describe aurantiaca or am I missing something?

                  as for the spp's being sold in the hobby I have no clue could be anything!
                  I have 3 differnt spp sold to me as urticans which one if any is the true spp ill never know the juruesis paper you and brendan sent me I must admit was not much help ( although i thank you both very much )I dont know if its just me but old taxa papers are utter rubbish mind you i could say that of a few up to date ones regarding this genus lol


                  Richard has forgotten to add the references he use in this reply so here is the link http://tarantula-project.org/species...ria/aurantiaca

                  This is developing into an excellent thread and what this forum was created for but if anyone is going to use information taken or gathered another source, website or book please list it after your reply. As this considered respectful to the author of the original work. Richard had done this on subsequent posts but not this one. See the forum rules

                  Mark Pennell
                  BTSForum Admin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Richard,

                    Originally posted by RichardDegville

                    Avicularia aurantiaca FARMER, 1996
                    who is FARMER? It's Stefan BAUER who described A. aurantiaca:
                    • BAUER, S. (1996): Eine verkannte Vogelspinne aus Nord-Peru Avicularia aurantiaca spec. n. (Araneida: Theraphosidae: Aviculariinae). Arachnol. Mag. 4(: 1-8.

                    all the best,
                    Martin
                    »ARACHNE« – The Journal of the German Arachnology Society

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Martin I take reference from

                      [url]http://tarantula-project.org/species/Avicularia/aurantiaca

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Richard,

                        Originally posted by RichardDegville
                        Hi Martin I take reference from

                        [url]http://tarantula-project.org/species/Avicularia/aurantiaca
                        *LOL* you used google or a similar tool to translate it, right!? => you have translated also the name of Stefan BAUER – "Bauer" can be a proper name (like in this case) but it's also the german word for "farmer": Stefan BAUER => Stefan "FARMER"! = *rofl*

                        all the best,
                        Martin
                        »ARACHNE« – The Journal of the German Arachnology Society

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ok ok my German sux I wondered who farmer was lol I think I will have to learn it but with a Birmingham accent getting your tongue round the German words is going be hard lol

                          any way back to business

                          Material and methods
                          1 female (Holotyp), offspring of animals, which WALLACE in north Peru collected, Exuvie of a female, 1 male (Paratyp).

                          This is a typical example of a bad description who in the right mind would describe via exuvia? lol like I said in my previous post regarding describing nov.sp no back ground work as been done and indeed no phenotypes have been adressed so is this a valid sp personally I think not it should be discregarded and juruensis should take presidence.

                          I know I shouldent even make a comment on the sp juvenile that is in question but it could be possible bicegoi ?????

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Richard

                            I follow your thread with much interest. "Farmer / Bauer". Very good. From one Brummy to another sort it out mate. A Brummy with a German accent, interesting

                            This argument has been kicking around the hobby for years now and probably will be for years to come. Its what makes the hobby fun. But I feel I should offer a word of caution here. The internet is a wonderful tool and there is no doubt that "the truth is out there" as they say but first you have to find it. My point is, that a photo on a site does not necesarrilly mean it is correct. You argue a good case Rich with some valid points and then make a rash statement regarding " it could be bicegoi". What makes you say this . Have you personally examined the type? Photographs are great but NOT, as we all know, an identification tool.

                            Nor does the fact that someone has information on a species on their site automatically make it the correct information. Further, the fact that someone disects a spider does not make them a taxonomist. I have disected hundreds of specimens but would never claim to be a taxonomist. In truth that side of the hobby holds no interest for me The myriad of names that have been kicked about over the last few years are a result of over zealous importers and some unscrupulous traders in search of a better deal. At the end of the day I know it is important that we have our spiders correctly named and in order to breed sucesfully this is a must but tread carefully as the road to hell is paved with good intention. At the end of the day I think we should enjoy the spider for what it is and not what it is called or we all in danger of collecting the name and not the animal.

                            I look forward to seeing your work Rich and I am sure you have spent considerable time in your research. Dont throw it away by becoming bogged down with the pedantics that surround the hobby.
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                            • #15
                              Hi Ray I was down broad street last night ( hangover ) so ill reply this morning lol

                              I follow your thread with much interest. "Farmer / Bauer". Very good. From one Brummy to another sort it out mate. A Brummy with a German accent, interesting
                              LOL tell me about it!!!

                              This argument has been kicking around the hobby for years now and probably will be for years to come.
                              I agree and it seems like the many many other sp nothing seems to be done about it there are a good few taxonomists/systematics out there I know funding is hard to get and they must be very busy but if they all band together concentrate on a genus at a time get that sorted an move on the hobby would slowly sort its self out.

                              Its what makes the hobby fun. But I feel I should offer a word of caution here. The internet is a wonderful tool and there is no doubt that "the truth is out there" as they say but first you have to find it.
                              I agree the net is a useful tool but does not offer all the necessary information theraphosid web sites are many and I have lost count of how many care sheets are out there etc but only a very few ( mostly German ) have relevant information on the taxa side of the hobby not knocking the bts site but it would be fantastic if it could offer comprehensive listings of sp along with hundreds of correctly identified photographs like Rick west's to a degree I know this would be a daunting task and Mark has done a fantastic job of the site already but if you put all your eggs in one basket every one would know exactly were to come and wouldn't have to search the net for hours on end for an incorrect photograph etc.

                              My point is, that a photo on a site does not necessarily mean it is correct.
                              This is why we need societies so we can go to websites "with correctly identified sp listings on them"

                              You argue a good case Rich with some valid points
                              Thanks

                              and then make a rash statement regarding " it could be bicegoi". What makes you say this . Have you personally examined the type? Photographs are great but NOT, as we all know, an identification tool
                              Yes this was indeed a very rash action I wouldn't call it a statement more like adding fuel to the fire so to speak the poor lad has asked for an opinion and ended up with a taxa debate which no offence but he prob doesn't understand lol this is why I over exaggerated the question marks I haven't looked at the 'type' as yet but I have been corresponding with Janet Beccaloni and Richard Kielb of the BNHM and have been invited down to study 'type' material and use there archive records for the journals I would like to gather descriptions from once my sp list is complete and I have saved enough cash ( 40p per photo copy!! ) ill take a drive down. lol rather than have photocopys sent up all the time its getting dear now!.

                              Nor does the fact that someone has information on a species on their site automatically make it the correct information. Further, the fact that someone dissects a spider does not make them a taxonomist I have dissected hundreds of specimens but would never claim to be a taxonomist
                              I agree but to be honest any tom dick or Harry can describe a sp as long as they use the correct codes of nomenclature look at platnicks its not even peer reviewed! so what defines a taxonomist? other than the description in the dictionary . "taxonomist - a biologist who specializes in the classification of organisms into groups on the basis of their structure and origin and behaviour". there are many hobbyists that do this including myself they my not specialize or be regarded as "taxonomists" as they have to go to work to earn a crust but the majority of there time is taken up with theraphosid research. like yourself Ray your chosen field is Haplopelma/Selenocosmia ( rather you than me lol you may not consider yourself a taxonomist but whats in a word?).

                              In truth that side of the hobby holds no interest for me
                              This is where we differ I love it if I have a pet I like to know as much about it as possible just could be my meticulous nature but I have always been the same. I have said this to paul towler many times "whats the point in owning and breeding a sp when you know nothing about its like saying you can swim and never going in the water!" ok some people just keep theraphosids as pets and dont want to go into the ins and outs of it all but I consider that disrespectful to the spider how can you correctly care for an an exotic animal and not know anything about it?and being a pet that many are scared of what do you say to people when they ask where it's from what sp is it etc etc. ok you dont have to go into taxa but I can only see that going into that side of the hobby is a natural progression and inevitable at some point.

                              The myriad of names that have been kicked about over the last few years are a result of over zealous importers and some unscrupulous traders in search of a better deal. At the end of the day I know it is important that we have our spiders correctly named and in order to breed successfully this is a must but tread carefully as the road to hell is paved with good intention. At the end of the day I think we should enjoy the spider for what it is and not what it is called or we all in danger of collecting the name and not the animal.
                              never a truer word said I totally agree!!!

                              I look forward to seeing your work Rich and I am sure you have spent considerable time in your research..
                              Thanks again its true even my missus and mates say I need to grow a beard carry a thermos and wear a green anorak! lol

                              Dont throw it away by becoming bogged down with the pedantics that surround the hobby
                              Very true but its very hard not to the amount of politics back stabbing and all kinds of underlines things that go on behind the scenes in this hobby we enjoy so much are astounding when a group of people are so passionate about there given subjects there will always be rows ones own opinion and various other trivial aspects.

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