breeding

[chris king]

so what if i breed some ts ,that are related ,eggs left with the mother and half come out with 3 legs imstead of 8, they seem to be feeding and growing , true they keep turning around in circles,
now do i cull these or what

of corase they would be culled,

and the half that turned out good ??
sell as normal ?
cull them, and never breed that pair again?
i know what i would do!!!


inbreeding dont think there be any problems untill a good few genarations down the line, plus by bring in new wild type stock to keep the line strong,

what would happen if tarantula imports were banned in the uk ?
we would have one gene pool to work with some imbreeding would def occur

[Phil Rea]

Hypothetical question for you then. Say I had a wild caught female of a new species that came in misidentified with an import lot but is plainly not what it's labelled (let's say it was neon blue and turquoise, and I feel sure that everyone in the hobby will want one). I take it home, house and feed it, and it drops a sac.

I don't know where the female was collected, because the exporter either doesn't know or care, so I can't go looking for males.

Do I :

a) selfishly keep it to myself, raise the slings to adulthood and then watch as they all worthlessly die?

b) identify the males, wait for them to mature, and then breed them together with their siblings or set up a breeding group amongst some trusted colleagues, so that the species can be introduced into captivity?

I know which I would do, and it's nothing to do with money.

It's not as simple or as clear cut as saying inbreeding is bad or inbreeding is good.

[chris king]

well ied ask on here for help id the T
Pob get mixed or i agree with so and so repliys,

then go for the option b

have you still got that neon blue and turquoise male ?JOKING


no i go for the option B

It's not as simple or as clear cut as saying inbreeding is bad or inbreeding is good.

true

[wesley flower]

i see what you are saying phil. but. i would either breed mother to son if i really had to. or give the off spring away to researchers. but does the hobby really need a new species as soon as it is discovered? can such people wait til the said species has been collected in groups to have a breeding nucleus. or are people so pig ignorant they dont really care for nothing but their collection.
first i would if it was imperitive to have this species in captivity make sure of wild population, if a wild population is not known then i would wait til it is.
the wild should come first and in the captive setting people should be patient.
so phil i take it you never sell your spiders and you give them all away when you get slings etc?????

[James Box]

some people really need to calm down. this is not a moral issue.
the research that HAS been done has found NO problems whatsoever.
arachnids and invertebrates are not as complicated as mammals physiologically.
so what we know indicates that at least some inbreeding isn't a problem
the truth is, capturing specimens in the wild and introducing them to captive stock happens quite regularly, and thus for the most part, there will be decent variety in bloodlines, if it's ever proved to matter.
should we inbreed all willy-nilly? i doubt it...but given the lack of choice for new species, it's clearly not the end of the world, or the end of the spider, for that matter, to inbreed a bit.

there's one fairly salient point to consider as well. weak spiderlings tend to die. it's a sad fact we've all encountered. now, if a spiderling DID have problems from inbreeding, it would be weak, and there is a VERY good chance it would die!

even healthy spiderlings are delicate and often die for reasons that are very hard to pinpoint, though those are usually down to husbandry.
so if weak spiderlings die even more easily than healthy ones, surely this represents the "culling" that nature does herself.

at any rate, this should not erupt into a heated argument on this forum, it's not the place for anything but polite discussion, with respect for other views when there's room for doubt on both sides.

lately there have been some rather heated discussions with several hackles being raised. please let's try and keep this a civil place!
we all love our spiders here, so regardless of some being more "pro-inbreeding" than others, it doesn't mean they don't care and that they're not working towards better practice for all spider-keepers.
i'm sure this includes inbreeding.

anyway, just my tuppence.

[Phil Rea]

i see what you are saying phil. but. i would either breed mother to son if i really had to. or give the off spring away to researchers. but does the hobby really need a new species as soon as it is discovered? can such people wait til the said species has been collected in groups to have a breeding nucleus. or are people so pig ignorant they dont really care for nothing but their collection.
first i would if it was imperitive to have this species in captivity make sure of wild population, if a wild population is not known then i would wait til it is.
the wild should come first and in the captive setting people should be patient.
so phil i take it you never sell your spiders and you give them all away when you get slings etc?????

I've given away far more than I've ever sold Wes

You can't reintroduce them into the wild anyway, no matter how many you breed in captivity. Habitat destruction is the major threat to wild populations.

We're going off topic here

[wesley flower]

so have i Phil i rarly deal in money lol, thats prob why i am poor.
i do see what you are saying.
my piont is about inbreeding when there are unrelated males around. and why people do it i.e. with a species like Psalmopeus cambridgei and common species.

[Ray Gabriel]

Ray. Nature does not occur in a 5ltr cereal container so 'GOD' has to be played by someone. there is this thing in the wild called natural selection, i suggest you read up on it.

Natural selection is the weaker animals beying preyed on by other animals, the spiderling making its burrow to close to the waters edge and getting flooded and drowning, natural selection (as in selection in a natural way) is not deciding that you are only going to keep 50 from a salmon pink eggsac and freezing the rest You might want to go and read up on it and get your facts right.

if we all want the future of the 'tarantula' to be of good quality strict breeding and selection of the offspring must be done. if this is not done i only prosume that the said breeder is lazy and money grabbing. (£40+ per sling of a P. metallica that has been inbred so much to show impureties only to die a week/mount or two down the line) culling is not a bad thing.

Ok Wesley and Stan, both proponents of culling, with your infinite wisdom and abilities far beyond the normal person can you indicate which are the following from the picture please?

1. The best feeders
2. The worst feeders
3. The best at sperm webs
4. The worst at sperm webs
5. The best breeder
6. The worst breeders
7. The best at catching food
8. The worst at catching food
9. The best for large size
10. The worst for large size
11. The best colour
12. The worst colour
13. The best immune system
14. The worst immune system
15. The best life span
16. The worst life span
17. The one that will not kick hair
18. The worst hair kicker
19. The one that is immune to nematode infections
20. The one that is not immune to nematode infections
21. The one that is immune to mite infections
22. The one that is not immune to mite infections

[Ray Gabriel]

if we all want the future of the 'tarantula' to be of good quality strict breeding and selection of the offspring must be done. if this is not done i only prosume that the said breeder is lazy and money grabbing. (£40+ per sling of a P. metallica that has been inbred so much to show impureties only to die a week/mount or two down the line)
culling is not a bad thing.

I dont want "perfect spiders" i want normal spiders, now then Wesley as you cannot anwser my previous post (because it is impossible without rearing up all the speiderlings and breeding from them (which has just blown your and Stans culling theory) let me try to expalin something.

The only people who will benefit from less of something are the dealers, less = more buyers willing to pay = higher price..............its called market forces you might want to go and read up on this.

Can you post up a link for us all to see where it is proven that there are genetic inbred problems with P. metallica?

If you ahve animals dying on you so quickly you might want to re think about how you are keeping them

in show rabbits, pigeons of the fancy breeds a selection of the stock is done to produce the desired speiman. in doing this there is a lot of controlled and documented breeding. inbreeding outbreeding and line breeding and crossbreeding (another subject) are commonly done. unwanted specimans are culled or sold on for pets not breeding stock! it is proven that so called pedigree show animals ie dogs and rabbits are weaker and live shorted lives than thier noy inbred counter parts. like stan said such breeding can be done but not as a rule.

EEHHH we dont have pedigree spiders, and i personally dont want any, i have yet to see a rabbit, pidgeon or dog produce even an H. incei eggsac equivalent with 40 + offspring in one go never mind a L. parahaybana equivalent.

The above are SELECTIVELY BRED for HUMAN DESIRED traits not natural ones You might want to go and read up on that.

as quoted by a few "we dont know enough about Theraphsids" so why do something that is not kosher in other animal?

???????????????????

is there any conservation breeders of spiders out there???????

every spiderling produced from am eggsac no matter what its genetic make up, reduces the demand on wild caught..................isnt that conservation

does anyone care for the future generations of the 'tarantula'??????

By even breeding common species isnt that caring for future generations? P. smithi might soon only be found in captivity.

do people only care for the money!!!!???????

Mostly the dealers who would love for there to be less in an eggsac, imagine if P. metallica only produced 5 young in each eggsac, they would still be £140 ea.....market forces

[wesley flower]

touchy mr gabreil has a nerve been hit?
all what was said was that with too much inbreeding will cause weekness.
i dont think for one second that nyone will beable to do this from a pic, but to have the spiders and to monitor them for a few moults this can be done by an experienced person.
do you really think inbreeding is 100% safe and cause no problems to future stock?
i mentioned about n/s, all i was saying there is nosuch thing in captivity and if inbreeding was being done on a large scalewouldn't it be best to irradicate the weak individuals so nofurther breeding is being done with them if the reach maturity at all. instead some poor bugger will have a sling they bought in good faith die on them for no fault of the keeper, thus money wasted.

[Ray Gabriel]

i see what you are saying phil. but. i would either breed mother to son if i really had to. or give the off spring away to researchers. but does the hobby really need a new species as soon as it is discovered? can such people wait til the said species has been collected in groups to have a breeding nucleus. or are people so pig ignorant they dont really care for nothing but their collection.
first i would if it was imperitive to have this species in captivity make sure of wild population, if a wild population is not known then i would wait til it is.
the wild should come first and in the captive setting people should be patient.
so phil i take it you never sell your spiders and you give them all away when you get slings etc?????

How Many specimens of male and female are required in a captive population of Theraphosid spiders to prevent inbreeding depression?

[Ray Gabriel]

my piont is about inbreeding when there are unrelated males around. and why people do it i.e. with a species like Psalmopeus cambridgei and common species.

How many P. cambridgei have came into the hobby from the wild?

Can you give an accurate figure for any species as to how many have come in from the wild?

I am reliably told (by the fuy who recieved them) only 3 L. paprahaybana eggsacs ever came out of Brasil..............with only 3 blood lines how do you now get an unrelated male?

And with this case where they are still producing eggsacs of 1000+ they dont seem to have any problems....................do they?

[wesley flower]

Ray would you like to talk about this at lenght? i can give you my phone number if you want

[Ray Gabriel]

touchy mr gabreil has a nerve been hit?

nope, well you didnt

[QUOTE=wesley flower;22260] all what was said was that with too much inbreeding will cause weekness. i dont think for one second that nyone will beable to do this from a pic, but to have the spiders and to monitor them for a few moults this can be done by an experienced person. [QUOTE=wesley flower;22260]

AHH so you cannot cull spiderlings and still be sure you ahve the good ones? they need to be reared to amturity to find out about the breeding

do you really think inbreeding is 100% safe and cause no problems to future stock?

Mascarinus remotus.......................enough said

i mentioned about n/s, all i was saying there is nosuch thing in captivity and if inbreeding was being done on a large scalewouldn't it be best to irradicate the weak individuals so nofurther breeding is being done with them if the reach maturity at all.

ever wondered why some females wont mate with some males in captivity? or why some females prefer males they are related to? its natural selection,

ever wondered why some eggs dont hatch? some N1s dont make N2 , natural selection

instead some poor bugger will have a sling they bought in good faith die on them for no fault of the keeper, thus money wasted.

I take it you have just lost some valuable spider?

Has to be inbred....................nothing else?

[Ray Gabriel]

Ray would you like to talk about this at lenght? i can give you my phone number if you want

No i would like all to see your replies (as i am sure others would) and the evidance for the comments you are making


You asked about inbreeding,

If you want i can post the normal list of questions that no one answers if you want?