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    i have noticed on other forums that some breeders publically say that they inbreed their spiders (mother- son/grandson etc and brother-sister) doing this can only be bad for the captive stock. new blood line must be added to ensure the captive stock does not become weak and all inbred, (cant be good?)
    i know some people (that know spiders?) have said that inbreeding can be done with no apparant problem to the future slings, but is this true for inbreeding, line breeding and out breeding?????? and how many times can this be done with out affecing the future of the gene???????? does this happen in the wild????????
    in my humble opinion doing this anymore than once in a blue moon can cause serious problems to the captive stock and will promote wild catching and the depletion of the wild populations
    please i want all of your opinions on this matter fores/against and if anyone know of any reasearch on this matter please let me know.
    kindest regards
    wes

  • #2
    I have also wondered about this in spiders..


    Originally posted by wesley flower View Post
    in my humble opinion doing this anymore than once in a blue moon can cause serious problems to the captive stock and will promote wild catching and the depletion of the wild populations

    My thoughts -

    By this logic preventing inbreeding will also promote wild catching as genetically different wild individuals would become more highly sought after.

    You are reffering to 'inbreeding depression' by which genetic diseases become more pominent as highly related offspring are used to breed from. I don't know of any evidence for this in spiders, but one thing to think about is that unlike most mammals, spiders offspring number in the 100's giving more genetic diversity for 'natural' selection to act upon. Any individuals that did show signs of inbreeding related diseases would most likely not survive and you would be left with healthy individuals to contiinue the captive bred population - at worst leaving you with many, very similar, but healthty individuals.

    The problems would arise if you were planning on releasing them back into the wild in which case their genetic similarity would leave them more at risk of catching diseases, parasites and succumbing to varoious environmental pressures.

    These are my thoughts
    Last edited by Mark Pajak; 17-01-08, 10:52 AM.
    See my new blog about Bristol's bug life: Bristol Loves Bugs

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Mark Pajak View Post
      I
      By this logic preventing inbreeding will also promote wild catching as genetically different wild individuals would become more highly sought after.
      i dis agree with this as the population in captivity will be strong if inbreeding did not occur, the wild population would be monitored and specimans taken only when needed not by the hundred for the money grabbing people selling such spiders sometimes reaching 100's.
      this is the kind of thing where collections are only made at breeding season when slings are imerging and only a % taken. to proect the wild populations and to streinghen the gene pull in the captive stock

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Mark Pajak View Post
        I have also wondewred about this in spiders..


        but one thing to think about is that unlike most mammals, spiders offspring number in the 100's giving more genetic diversity for 'natural' selection to act upon.

        Just an uninformed thought here
        In the wild 1 x "T" has 200 young those 200 have another 200 each etc etc
        within a very few generations you will have thousands of "T"s merrily breeding away or should i say inbreeding at 2nd 3rd or 4th generation

        this is a generalisation as most of the babys will never reach maturity due to predation but captive bred will have a higher survival rate

        In theory if inbreeding happens in the wild whats the problem with captive inbreeding as long as its not taken to extreem for example to alter the looks of a species by selecting a bright coloured spider breeding with another bright one and then breeding the resulting offspring to maintain a specific look
        waffling a bit but you get what i mean

        Clint
        Clinton

        Maxine 9 - 9.5 inch Lasiodora Parahybana
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        • #5
          Originally posted by wesley flower View Post
          i have noticed on other forums that some breeders publically say that they inbreed their spiders (mother- son/grandson etc and brother-sister) doing this can only be bad for the captive stock. new blood line must be added to ensure the captive stock does not become weak and all inbred, (cant be good?)
          i know some people (that know spiders?) have said that inbreeding can be done with no apparant problem to the future slings, but is this true for inbreeding, line breeding and out breeding?????? and how many times can this be done with out affecing the future of the gene???????? does this happen in the wild????????
          in my humble opinion doing this anymore than once in a blue moon can cause serious problems to the captive stock and will promote wild catching and the depletion of the wild populations
          please i want all of your opinions on this matter fores/against and if anyone know of any reasearch on this matter please let me know.
          kindest regards
          wes
          I personally don't know of any research done, but from everything I have read, and conversations I have had with people who have been breeding spiders for many many years, there are no apparent adverse effects from breeding spiders with their offspring.

          Furthermore, many species would not be in captivity now if this had not been the case, making wild caught spiders even more common.

          In my humble opinion, you cannot compare reproduction of spiders (apart from the inherent biological processes within reproduction and genetics, such as meiosis, the production of gametes etc.) with the reproduction of more complex organisms.

          My Collection:

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          • #6
            there was a journal article about this, i think! i believe the conclusion was that for many generations, there was not the slightest sign of negative effects from inbreeding.
            i'll have to look for that article, can't remember if i accessed it online or actually have it!
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            • #7
              Layzell, J. 1990. Inbreeding. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 5 (3): 12.

              Clapp, J. P. 1996. Inbreeding of tarantulas. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 11 (4): 132134.

              Gabriel, R. 2003. Food for thought: common names and inbreeding. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 18 (3): 8991.

              With thanks to Richard Gallon's index of BTS journal articles Vol 1(1) 22(2)

              (The journal containing Ray's article is available to BTS Members on the members site).

              My Collection:

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              • #8
                I tend to agree with the point Phil made. If there is no inherant deseise then it is unlikely that there will be a problem. I tend to be intrigued by the idea that releasing captive bred taranulas back into the wild would leave them vunerable. As deseise develops so does the species to combat it, for example the common flu and humans. If you or I catch a cold it is gone in a few days, maybe a week. In some parts of the world the common flu is seriously dangerous without medical intervention because these people have never met it! were they exposed to it all the time there would be some losses but after a couple of generations the peoples exposed would be as resistant as us. Why should things be any different for spiders? Certainly further study needs to be made in this area.
                sigpicHate is for people who find thinking a little too complicated!

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                • #9
                  Lower inbreeding= more wild spiders taken

                  and vice versa, so the amount of inbreeding is directly proportional to the initial numbers of wild spiders taken.

                  If there were only a few wild spiders taken to start a captive bred population then even if you go to the maximum effort to prevent direct siblings from mating with each other, and swap all males with other males, you will still be mating cousins!

                  So swapping around males is not a 'fool proof' way to prevent possible inbreeding problems, the most important factor is the amount of genetic diversity present in the captive population in the first place.

                  Still I think it would be much more of a cause for concern if there was a lot of evidence for inbreeding related diseases in spiders. Sure it happens a lot in mammals, but to take this problem and assume it is relavent for spiders might be akin to 'barking up the wrong tree'.

                  Take indian stick insects, for example - they don't even mate with other individuals, let alone their (almost nonexistent) brothers, as they can reproduce asexually, and they don't seem to bothered about such 'auto eroticism'.
                  Last edited by Mark Pajak; 17-01-08, 12:19 PM.
                  See my new blog about Bristol's bug life: Bristol Loves Bugs

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wesley flower View Post
                    i have noticed on other forums that some breeders publically say that they inbreed their spiders (mother- son/grandson etc and brother-sister) doing this can only be bad for the captive stock. new blood line must be added to ensure the captive stock does not become weak and all inbred, (cant be good?) ...

                    The matter of inbreeding has caused some rather "energetic debates" on a number of forums and I admit I've added my share of fuel to the fire.

                    Generally, inbreeding isn't bad as long as intensive, ruthless culling of crippled, imperfect, slow, small or otherwise undesirable individuals is done. The fact is that inbreeding is required to "fix" any desirable traits, but since the laws of genetics don't distinguish between "desirable" and "undesirable" traits, both kinds plus all the neutral ones are also "fixed" in the inbred population. In nature, the individuals with undesirable traits tend to be the first ones eaten, thus reducing the probability that they will be passing their traits on to the next generation. If we save every blinking baby tarantula without manually culling out the "undesirable" ones, our captive stock will gradually deteriorate like some breeds of dogs have.

                    The major problem is that many, if not most, breeders attempt to save every baby they can, regardless of quality. And, while the process doesn't appear to have any deleterious effects now, it will catch up to us. We're booby trapping our grand children's tarantulas. And when it does it will be impossible to breed the defects out of the population without a massive culling program. Such a culling hasn't happened with dogs, cats, cattle or even goats; I can't see it happening with tarantulas either.

                    You can read some of the debates at these links:

                    http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=100533

                    http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=109401

                    http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/show...=109401&page=2

                    and by doing a search in any forum using the keyword 'inbreed' or 'inbreeding.'

                    Make another pot of coffee or pour yourself another cola. You're going to be busy for a while!
                    Last edited by Stanley A. Schultz; 18-01-08, 06:42 AM.
                    The Tarantula Whisperer!
                    Stan Schultz
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Stanley A. Schultz View Post
                      Generally, inbreeding isn't bad as long as intensive, ruthless culling of crippled, imperfect, slow, small or otherwise undesirable individuals is done.
                      SIGUE HEIL

                      Originally posted by Stanley A. Schultz View Post
                      our captive stock will gradually deteriorate like some breeds of dogs have.
                      Shouldnt have played god and removed all the "
                      Originally posted by Stanley A. Schultz View Post
                      crippled, imperfect, slow, small or otherwise undesirable individuals
                      " should you?

                      Originally posted by Stanley A. Schultz View Post
                      The major problem is that many, if not most, breeders attempt to save every baby they can, regardless of quality. And, while the process doesn't appear to have any deleterious effects now, it will catch up to us. We're booby trapping our grand children's tarantulas. And when it does it will be impossible to breed the defects out of the population without a massive culling program. Such a culling hasn't happened with dogs, cats, cattle or even goats; I can't see it happening with tarantulas either.
                      You have no proof and the problems will only arrive by Fascist Death Camp mentality.

                      One of the main reasons there is no problems with inbreeding in theraphosid is that the weaker ones are still in the "mixing" pot allowing all the genes for every thing to be interspersed.

                      What in your eyes are

                      Originally posted by Stanley A. Schultz View Post
                      crippled, imperfect, slow, small or otherwise undesirable individuals
                      ?

                      what in your eyes is not

                      Originally posted by Stanley A. Schultz View Post
                      quality
                      ?


                      This selective genetic garbage has been here before and it didnt wash then, it wont wash now.

                      I hope ther is no one starting to think that any of thier specimens are poor quality because they are not doing the same as someone elses, many problems with housing any animal can be (and 90% of the time ) attributed to husbandry.

                      We dont even know enough about theraphosid spiders to start culling etc, so lets "kill" that subject here and now.

                      Ray
                      Last edited by Ray Gabriel; 18-01-08, 08:04 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ray Gabriel View Post
                        We dont even know enough about theraphosid spiders to start culling etc, so lets "kill" that subject here and now.
                        Ray
                        Agreed !!!

                        Strong opinions follow this subject everywhere,
                        Having read quite a few threads that have got out of hand on other forums about this subject.... lets keep this one running as it is at present....... factual, topical and impersonal.

                        Ta muchly

                        Colin
                        Don't forget to learn what you can, when you can, where you can.



                        Please Support CB Grammostola :- Act Now To Secure The Future

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                        • #13
                          well well well.........
                          i totally agree with you stan.
                          Ray. Nature does not occur in a 5ltr cereal container so 'GOD' has to be played by someone. there is this thing in the wild called natural selection, i suggest you read up on it.
                          if we all want the future of the 'tarantula' to be of good quality strict breeding and selection of the offspring must be done. if this is not done i only prosume that the said breeder is lazy and money grabbing. (40+ per sling of a P. metallica that has been inbred so much to show impureties only to die a week/mount or two down the line)
                          culling is not a bad thing. in show rabbits, pigeons of the fancy breeds a selection of the stock is done to produce the desired speiman. in doing this there is a lot of controlled and documented breeding. inbreeding outbreeding and line breeding and crossbreeding (another subject) are commonly done. unwanted specimans are culled or sold on for pets not breeding stock! it is proven that so called pedigree show animals ie dogs and rabbits are weaker and live shorted lives than thier noy inbred counter parts. like stan said such breeding can be done but not as a rule.
                          as quoted by a few "we dont know enough about Theraphsids" so why do something that is not kosher in other animal?
                          is there any conservation breeders of spiders out there???????
                          does anyone care for the future generations of the 'tarantula'??????
                          do people only care for the money!!!!???????

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wesley flower View Post
                            well well well.........
                            i totally agree with you stan.
                            Ray. Nature does not occur in a 5ltr cereal container so 'GOD' has to be played by someone. there is this thing in the wild called natural selection, i suggest you read up on it.
                            if we all want the future of the 'tarantula' to be of good quality strict breeding and selection of the offspring must be done. if this is not done i only prosume that the said breeder is lazy and money grabbing. (40+ per sling of a P. metallica that has been inbred so much to show impureties only to die a week/mount or two down the line)
                            culling is not a bad thing. in show rabbits, pigeons of the fancy breeds a selection of the stock is done to produce the desired speiman. in doing this there is a lot of controlled and documented breeding. inbreeding outbreeding and line breeding and crossbreeding (another subject) are commonly done. unwanted specimans are culled or sold on for pets not breeding stock! it is proven that so called pedigree show animals ie dogs and rabbits are weaker and live shorted lives than thier noy inbred counter parts. like stan said such breeding can be done but not as a rule.
                            as quoted by a few "we dont know enough about Theraphsids" so why do something that is not kosher in other animal?
                            is there any conservation breeders of spiders out there???????
                            does anyone care for the future generations of the 'tarantula'??????
                            do people only care for the money!!!!???????
                            A spider is not a rabbit though, and how can you directly compare vertebrate mammals and birds with invertebrate arachnids?

                            Evolution by means of natural selection does not occur instantly in the wild, it happens when a population shows selective genetic change over time.
                            Last edited by Phil Rea; 18-01-08, 12:43 PM.

                            My Collection:

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                            • #15
                              as quoted by some there is not enough known about Theraphosids, so using common sense and taking into account what happens to other animals ie rabbits and bird i have applied the same logic to spiders, there is no research known by me on inbreeding in Theraphosids but there are loads of studies on other animals, results all conclude that over a long period inbreeding is bad. i have spoken to people involved in reptiles and amphibians, they also say that inbreeding is a problem if done too much.

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