agressive tarantulas

[gizza]

Hi, I was wondering which species of tarantula I should get at the bts show. Last year I bought a juv female red knee which I love, but was told that I needed more experience b4 getting agressive spiders. I now have 4 spiders in my collection and hope to get 3 more. Which species would be the best to get to fit a 12"x 12"x12" inch cage? A colbalt blue, king baboon, salmonpink. All females. Also how much should I expect to pay for a juv female greenbottle blue and a juv female bracypelma boehmi.

Thanks for your help. Gizza.

[ornithoctonus]

Hi

Hi Gazza first of if you are new to keeping spiders I would stick to keeping new worlds at the moment. Yes old worlds have that kick about them but trust me to some one how has been be keeping nice frendly spiders a big aggresive spider can give them quite a shock and a nasty bite. Out of all the spiders I keep most of them are old worlds i.e asian african and nearly all are very aggresive. But if you realy want one I would'nt start of with Citharischius carawshayi all so known as the king baboon these spiders are far to aggresive for some one wanting to keep there first aggresive spider not only that you will never see it as they mack very deep burrows. As for Haplopelma lividum colbolt blue these are very simler in aggreshon to the to the spider we were just talking about and not only that you will just end up with a hole in the ground. I think you should go with something in the way of Lasiodora sp. comon name Salmon pink but if you realy somthing with a little bite then start of with something like Pterinochilus murinus comon name Usambara orange baboon there very easy to keep and you will se them more often and not only that there cheap very cheap about £10/15 for a adult and all so very colorfull. And if you want to learn more about your spider get a spiderling or a juve that way you can whach it grow and all so get used to it and it get used to you. But in no way should you pick it up becouse it will bite. Any way hoped this helps and if you need any other imfo on any thing just ask thanks.

[Larry Loos]

Defensive versus Aggressive

I read so much about defensive tarantulas and aggressive tarantulas. My feelings were that these two terms are frequently misused in descriptive actions of certain mygalomorph species. Two that come to mind are posts concerning Asian species and African species. Again, not all but some of these seem to generate more posts than others.

Tarantulas as we all know are as individual and diverse as any other living species in the animal kingdom and it seems no two are alike. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. But when it comes to the term "defensive" or, "aggressive" I feel that one must differentiate between the two in terms of what it means in regards to behavior of a particular tarantula and what brings on that response from an animal whether in captivity or a free agent living in the wild.

First understand the technical difference between the terms. Defensive is defined as meaning: to protect, or protective, to preserve. Additionally, it conveys an attitude, a position of defense. Prepared to withstand attack.

The term aggressive can be defined by the terms, offensive or combative as in provoked or unprovoked attack. The term can also mean warlike and combative. It also is defined as to be inclined to hostile behavior and unprovoked hostilities..The launching of attacks!

It is important to communicate with proper terminology when assessing the response that a certain stimulus evokes from a tarantula in captivity. I say "in captivity" because fewer hobbyists travel to, or live in areas where wild populations are located.

It is amazing the response that can be generated by certain species in captivity. I personally have never seen a full-grown King baboon but I do keep H. Lividum, which according to several posts on various boards claim it to be a demon along with other colorful descriptions that are used.

My Cobalt blue seems quite content in its enclosure. How do I know that? Because I have never seen a provoked nor an unprovoked threat response from her.
Additionally I also know that she is well within her natural comfort parameters. That being a consistently between 73 to 79 degrees with approximately 70-75% humidity. Her diurnal cycles,[day/night] cycles are within natural guidelines. She does not wander the parameter of her enclosure and generally spends her time either perfecting her burrow or sitting in the entrance. I feel those are generally good indicators that she is at least not feeling threatened in that space.

But to put the terms in question in a more understandable context perhaps if you imagined a 40ft. spider getting too close to your personal space would you feel aggressive or defensive? I think the proper response would be one of a defensive posture. You certainly would not run straight into the jaws of death with an aggressive frontal assault. I know this is very simplistic approach but this isn't meant to be a scientific study of terminology but rather a clarification of two different terms as they apply to responses in captive tarantulas.

Lastly let me say that this post is not meant to generate deep conversations about terminology but just to bring to light the difference between the two and how they might apply in a more accurate way to the views in posts by hobbyists about their favorite wild things. This could also apply to any captive arachnids.

I do not think tarantulas in the pet trade should be coined as aggressive many times. I think defensive would be a much more accurate description of the well known threat posture. It is not an aggressive display but a self-preservation attempt. If that does not work of course then an aggressive attack could also be viewed as a last ditch effort to defend or preserve its own self either in the confinements of an enclosure or on it's own turf in the wild.

Also I might add that an intrusion into the personal space of any wild animal could certainly prompt an aggressive attack upon the intruder which would only be natural. There is one last wonderful thing about such responses by captive tarantulas and that is that such a response show that indeed that animal still has "wild" within itself. An attitude, a willingness to survive..And that is a very healthy sign that animal has what it takes to live out the full measure of it's god given life under sometimes unnatural or harsh conditions.

[Larry Loos]

About the numbers

I would like to add one thing about the above post since I mentioned numbers such as temperature and humidity. Don't put too much stock in the numbers quoted on caresheets and, even boards such as this or any others for that matter. They are for the most part bunk. Who says those figures are correct and where did they get those numbers anyway?

I do agree that they require a higher humidity level than say a desert species but lets not try and quote certain figures [I know that I did ]but, that may or may not be obtainable. If the substrate is a bit moist and there is a water bowl that should be fine.
I keep this species and have settled on some facts. What I would suggest to you if you are planning on keeping H. lividum,

1. reduce the open part of the top to help retain some humidity. There are a number of materials that can be used for this. Plastic wrap or, wax paper with say a towel on top of that works fine. Remember though, humidity and ventilation go hand in hand to avoid problems and it is a fine line one walks sometimes in that regard. Experience is the best teacher.

Remember one thing about this temp/humidity issue. What this species lives under naturally in southeast asia and what it exists under inside an enclosure at johnny's house are two totally different things. Nature provides it's own checks and balances, those same issues are frequently out of balance in an enclosed enviornment. Someone's enclosure is not a little piece of the jungle by any means. Don't try and replicate their natural environment. Instead, focus on environmental factors in which it can survive within under captivity. Thats the key.

2. Forget about the humidity gauges that they sell in pet stores. Frequently they are inacurate and junk for the most part. There is no way to check or calibrate one correctly. Better, if you "have" to have one would be to go to a home heating center and purchase a much higher quality unit.


3.These need to have a lair to reduce stress. If there is enough substrate in there for [it]to burrow then that part is worry free. Sometimes it takes this species a bit to settle in to a new enclosure. Make sure that the substrate is high enough so that if it climbs the sides it cannot fall further than aproximately the leg span. When your spider feels comfortable and the need, it will burrow just fine unless there is something wrong with it and it is going to die regardless. WC tarantulas have issues which is why many recommend captive bred spiders.

4. The best thing you can do is allow it to do what they do naturally, which is burrow and stay there. They are secretive animals by nature and some hobbyists get "peeved" because they never see theirs. Had they done their homework to begin with they would have known what to expect.

Lastly, if all parameters are met then this species will be alright unless there are medical issues involved. The point? set it up properly, allow it to do what they do and it should be ok. If it is not then it wasn't meant to be anyway.

[Mark Pennell]

Re: About the numbers

I would like to add one thing about the above post since I mentioned numbers such as temperature and humidity. Don't put too much stock in the numbers quoted on caresheets and, even boards such as this or any others for that matter. They are for the most part bunk.

Ally
Informative and educating posts you have made since joining a yesterday, well done. However I disagree with you on one part. This board is not bunk!
All questions answered here by me or any other well experienced keepers and long term hobbyists are based on experienced and often by well travelled individuals.

I agree that there a lot of disinformation can be found on the net, and often plagiarised care sheets are incorrect. The BTS / I pride ourselves on giving the best and informative information we can. In internet terms this is a relatively quiet board, free from casual banter and idol gossip. Traffic is always high on average 1500 visits a day. Only lately have posts increased.

Now I apologise for jumping on this small statement but as I said I am proud of this forum and the information that is posted here. I do recent be labelled as bunk

Regards
Mark Pennell


BTS Webmaster and forum Admin.

The campaign for real forum names: update to your real name today!

http://www.thebts.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1184

[Ray Hale]

I must agree with Mark on this. Whilst I also agree with most of what you say as it is informative and correct as it can I am disapponted that you feel most information is "bunk".

We pride ourselves in our answers and we allow posters to post as this is the basis of all good discussion. If myself or any other BTS Commitee member post we usually find the the thread dies.

We monitor closely what is posted and if the information is obviosly wrong we correct it very quickly.

I agree that on some boards the information given is sketchy and very often wrong but like Mark I take pride in my answers having spent 25 years reading about, writing about and more to the point keeping tarantulas.

Ray

[Larry Loos]

concerning the above posts

I actually did not mean to refer specifically to what might be available here on the BTS forum as bunk. In fact, I have not read a single care sheet at your site. For that I would say I know not what information might be available to your memebers. I am currently not a memeber of the BTS.

What I was referring to, and should have clairified was simply that caresheets in general that abound on the Internet are for the most part bunk in that one does not know whom posted that information nor where they got their data from. Stan Schultz [Schultz & Schultz] The tarantula Keepers Guide is vice president and, a modarator on the American Tarantula Society's board over here and I tend to agree with what is said here from time to time which is somewhat the same.

Let me try and pharse it another way for the folks here. In general, caresheets are only a reference for those that keep species for whom those sheets are produced. Where do they get those numbers? who says those are correct? being a Vietnam veteran I was lucky enough [if you cn call it that,] to see H. lividum in the wild there twice. At that time I was not interested in spiders but rather surviving. My point is, that what 80-90 degrees and 90% humidity are in a given region of the world is simply not the same thing as x temperature and humidity inside a captive environment. Nothing more.

I am pointing out that we do not have a little piece of the jungle inside our enclosures. Its a bit like saying that a saltwater fish tank is a little piece of the ocean. Simply not true, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.
What the hobbyist should focus on is what parameters a captive tarantula can survive under long term and remain healthy and active. Let me use Lasiodora parahybana as an example if I may..

L. parahybana originates from within the Brazilian state of Paraiba, eastward of the city of Joao Pessoa, Brazil in the humid east Atlantic rain forests. Climate is generally warm and humid with consistent rainy periods. Paraiba covers an area of approximately 56,372 square kilometers The scientific name coming from Paraiba. The location or state in Brazil where L. parahybana originates.

The point above is that, even if a hobbyist know such information that does not mean that they should try and duplicate the climatical conditions that exist there. It is not possible and often leads to problems. What they should do is try and create conditions in which their Salmon Pink tarantula can survive in their care. Whatever that takes. One must think outside the box sometimes in this hobby. Experience counts BS walks.

Nature is such an amazing thing. There is a certain rhythm to the natural world that we cannot duplicate. There, in our quest for environmental answers in Brazil we might notice that there is a signiture breeze that moves the air around us there. Even though there is high humidity and the heat factor may be close to 100 degrees, these animals are living fine there. But, when we put them into our enclosures and follow someone's instructions to keep the temerature at 80 degrees [try as we may] we set ourselves up for disaster if we do not walk a fine line. The same goes for humidity. Even though these tarantulas live in say, a fairly constant humidity level of say..75% if we try and replicate that inside an enclosed environment [especially without proper ventilation] again, we set ourselves up for several problems. Mold being one of them. So, I leave you folks with the suggestion that one not put too much stock into caresheets but rather, do your homework! find out where your spider comes from. Find out what climatical conditions exist there specifically and then use common sense in it's maintanance. Nothing more.
Lastly, let me say welcome to the impersonal world of computers. As we try and communicate with these machines we often lose the ability to read a person's intentions as we would face to face and things can be taken in a different maner than one on one personal conversations.
Thank you for following this long winded explanation. Forgive any spelling errors..I haven't had enough coffee this a.m.
L Loos

[Mikhail F. Bagaturov]

Hello Larry!

If talking the caresheets I would tell You that it is not to be very wise to write a "care sheet", but it is not simple to write a good care sheet which would be useful for a people who need a good source for information from the start...
Unfortunately my site is down for unknown time I would show You how it must be

And it is indeed a lot of people who can tell You how proper to keep any species but just really a few of them you should listen to...
Whom? You will find it in time ("you" - do not meant You're Larry)...
So all this depends on pereson and a way his brain has working.

But Your way of thinking really looks nice to me

[ornithoctonus]

Hi

Hi Larry I do agree with what you sead about the term aggresive I do think that its a rong term to use but I nearly allways use it for some reson it probbley becouse over the years thats all I've heard or read. As for the term I no that no tarantula is realy aggresive becouse its only defending its self from a big ugly human. I have been keeping tarantulas for many years since I was a little boy so just over 10 years and not just one or 2 here and there I have keept them obsessivly over the years from the word go and out of all my 80 or so tarantulas nearly all of them are old worlds with only 4. new worlds in there. So I am used to aggresive/defensive tarantulas. And like you sead each one has its own personalty I mean all I ever here is how Chilobrachys are so so aggresive/defensive but I have lodes of them and find them not to be that way at all yes there a bit nippy but not aggresive/defensive even thow there ment to be yes theres a few wores than others but thats what use humans are like. But I was only trying to give some advise to someone who wanted to go in to this area some of the spiders what Gazza was talking about will bite I no I have been bitten by one of the spiders we were talking about. I know there not going to jump out and try and kill him but I have keept these sorts of spiders for many years so I have an idea what I'm Talking about and simply did not want him to jump in to the deep end. as for this for this bord and other forums being bunk I do not agree anywere you go you willl find bits of imfo which have ever been miss put or not 100.percent right but out of the 10 years of keeping spiders and 14 years of keeping reptiles I still learn stuff of this Board and other forums. Theres allways something new to learn as for pore Gazza who simply just wanted to know which is best to keep out of the spiders we were talking about he must wonder whats going on anyway thanks for reading this james

[Larry Loos]

Point made

As stated care sheets are a reference for those that need some type of starting point for keeping a particular species. One often finds after keeping that species for sometime that they can work outside of those recommendations and, frequently do for various reasons. There is no subsitiution for doing one's homework before purchase. If that is done as is recommended so many times then that person can decide on on whether or not they have the ability to keep x species long term.

The only other source of information on specific care for individual species would be put forth by experts such as your own Gallon, or Breene and the likes to which they specifically attached their names to the information making it all the more valid. And, the great thing about forums is that we can all agree to disagree. After all, one first has to have an opinion to bring forward discussion thus reaching a conclusion. It is all about sharing information and assisting these bizarre, outlandish, predacious carnivores we call tarantulas.

[Larry Loos]

I understand what you are saying

ornithoctonus- I totally understand what you were trying to convey. I have made that point here now more than once which is..do your homework before purchasing a given species. Bottom line. You were trying to give advice and that is what forums are all about! post! post! post! What good does it do for lessor experienced hobbyists if information is not shared by more experienced keepers of these arachnids. Those that know should never separate themselves from those that do not know.

This is especially true for access to Arachnologists. Even though busy folks they are they should be available to questions from the general public. I have no experience with Gallon, but Rick West is one that I speak with from time to time and although he travels a bit he will answer any and all questions involving mygalomorphs if given time to respond. I of course am writing out of my field here but I have just enough experience to be dangerous.

[Mikhail F. Bagaturov]

Larry!

Different people have different experience in keeping the same species under the different conditions. And both can be really successful in their cases...
And the humidity-temperature conditions maybe fairly wide positions.
Ha-ha...
You can successfully keep H. lividum, for example, at the 24 and 27 grad by Celsius as well as at 60% and 80% - all these parameters are not the same You see...
So one can tell some of these not actually good and in his case 90% humidity also are really much better.
The same You can see about T. blondi points of view in keeping in captivity...

And which one is more "reputable" and right info?
It semes so maybe none of them... in some cases...
So...

I do not think the tarantula keeping hobby is something really different than any other keeping animals...
So before You'll find a proper way to care for any species You should listed to what people keeping the current species experienced with it as well as try to find the natural history of that species and other related info, isn't it?
And being finding it You step-by-step will sort what is right or not.

As well as You can keep tarantulas for YEARS and still know nothing...

Sorry, my English is poor and not my native language but I try to tell You what I try...

[Mikhail F. Bagaturov]

BTW...

If Gallon as You told several times before is "ours own", than West and Schultz should be "Yours"?
Isn't it?
But I always thought that the tarantula-keeping hobby is international...
And no such things like American, British or Russian tarantula hobby - it's all OURS!
Hope I just do not understand You right, Larry...

[ornithoctonus]

Hi

Hi there Mikhall your English is fine a lot better than my russian and I agree with what you are saying every one learns of every one ells oky some no more than others but theres allways somthing new to learn and theres allways ideas to swap with each other so this should not be looked down on. I my self may have been keeping spiders and breeding spiders for many years and I'm still quite young but I still think theres allways somthing you can learn even of a beginer. Becouse like you sead every one has diffrent ways of keeping there spiders some work well others dont. Anyway you have a very good point and your English is very good better than mine and I am English or should I say British nice speeking to you thanks.

[Ray Hale]

One of the reasons that the BTS does not produce care sheets for individual species is simple really. Many years ago I met an old lady. She was 86. She had kept tarantulas from the age of 70 and had contacted me to "depose" of her collection to good homes as her failing sight and loss of her husband had taken their toll. I went to see her and was amazed at her collection. She owned most species available at that time and to me, when I walked in to her animal room that was floor to ceiling, she was keeping every one totally wrong. All were kept on coloured gravel decorated with fish tank ornaments, all had a blue lightbulb suspended in their tanks which were all far too large.

She fed them every day, gave them all pet names ( she had no idea of the scientific ones) and handled most of them including her Pokey......Spooks.

But do you know what. they were all in excellent health, most of them had bred and they put my specimens to shame.

How could this be ? there I was a fresh faced BTS Committee member with an ego the size of Hereforshire being taught a lesson by an old lady. She loved them all and she didnt need me to tell her how to do it. Unfortunatly she passed away later that year. I still have most of her collection. I couldnt sell it and I felt obliged to look after them. I changed the set ups but still keep her Brachpelma smithi as she did because it just wouldnt settle in a new home.


The point to my story.......who are we to judge?

Care sheets are ok and a great starting point but we should not make a science out of a hobby. In my experience, in the wild most tarantulas live within 100 yards of humanity. They are opportunists and adapt very well.