DWA Species

[Ray Gabriel]

Just had a look on the notice board, and spotted Thomas Vinnmans statement refusing to send certain species into the UK. WELL DONE Thomas.

I would like to bring up a point of debate here so lets see how far we can go with this one (pages on the thread):

As the UK has laws which do not allow people to keep certain species without a DWA licence, should webmasters of any UK sites allow adverts which include DWA species in the first place?

But how do people know which are DWA Species, i hear some people ask?

Easy have a list at the top of the adverts section which shows all the species covered by DWA which cannot legally be allowed to be sold/bought into/in the UK without a licence.

Any person who puts up a list with DWA species will have thier advert removed as they have no excuse for including them.

But in doing this do we then EXCLUDE the (few) people who do have a DWA license from the sites?

I think not, the people who keep DWA species are a very small community and most of them (the ones i have spoken to ) know where to get thier new species anyway.

Maybe if we started to do this then the European traders will soon learn which species NOT to bring to the Exhibition in May (and other shows) each year.

Also by banning the posting up of adverts which include DWA we then clear ourselves (all websites) in the event of anyone buying a DWA species from a UK website, getting bitten, and then placing the blame on the webmaster for allowing such adverts to be published in the first place (litigation).

What do people think of these views?

I fuly agree with the webmasters comments posted on the addverts page :

"Webmaster comments: - Again DWA species listed here, this is the last warning I will start removing these adverts if you do not comply with the rules. "

Ray

[Mark Pennell]

Hi Ray

After several adverts which list DWA species I was forced to contact both Thomas and Herwig. Both have contacted me and Thomas posted the advert which you have mentioned, and Herwig emailed an apology.

I am fully aware that in Euroland, certain species are freely available, which is why from the very beginning on the Bulletin Board I have had the "What’s Hot" list.

The fact is we can own these species here in the UK, just that we have to have a DWA, so this is why I have never wished to prevent the adverts in the first place.

What concerns me is that someone may buy these without a DWA, and not even realise the potential dangers involved. Then on opening the package from Europe get tagged and end up seriously ill or worse!...

Only to have in the paper the next day that it was bought from the BTS... it is only a matter of time and all the implications this would entail.

Both these dealers offer a great service and have a lot of species for sell, I would not wish to lose them from posting on the board this is why I contacted them.

The BTS Bulletin board has on average 1500 hits per day; it’s a trusted and valued source for obtaining tarantulas.

I would like to keep it this way.

I will take all comments made here on this thread seriously and act upon them.

Regards
Mark

[Adam Smith]

maybe there could be a screening process with regards to DWA and livestock. Lets say someone in europe wishes to advertise venemous inverts they could advertise in a specified area and anyone who wishes to buy one has to access that section by entering there DWA lisence details to access and as proof that they have the lisence for such a specimen. Its just an idea, may or may not be feasible but its at least one way to tackle this type of situation.

[Simon Batten]

I was wondering where I can find a list of animals that you need a dwa lisence for??

[Mark Pennell]

I was wondering where I can find a list of animals that you need a dwa lisence for??

Go to the BTS Bulletin Board and click the link on the top of the page call whats hot..
Cheers
Mark

[Simon Batten]

thanks Mark

[OSJ]

The BTS does claim that part of its remit includes the keeping of scorpions in captivity. From what I can tell the majority of DWA adverts posted refer to the Buthid scorpions, which are also the most commonly kept family of scorpions among dedicated scorpion keepers, and the single largest family of the order.

The DWA is already a massive imposition on the scorpion hobby (and an unfair one when the toxicology of the buthids is actually understood…but that’s another argument ), for the BTS to make obtaining these scorpions even harder would be a shame. As the major representative of arachnoculture in the UK it would be nice to see the BTS show some sort of solidarity with scorpion keepers. True there is large network of breeders in the EU/US who exchange many Buthid scorpions but getting into the scorpion hobby in the UK can be very hard due to the fact that that so few species are readily available and most species are only available through personal contacts. The BTS classifieds is one the few (and most specific) UK only resources that can allow novice keepers some access to anything other then the standard Pandinus/ Heterometrus species.

I’m a long time BTS member who only keeps scorpions and I think it would be fair to say that I probably have the largest collection of DWA act listed scorpions in the UK (that I know of at least), so I speak with some experience. I think it would be shame if the BTS banned the advertising of DWA species since it would only serve as a limitation on the propagation of some of the most commonly kept scorpion species in captivity and makes the BTS’s online resources substantially less interesting/relevant to scorpion keepers (i.e some of its members).

Anyway that was my little rant

[Dave Gunter]

While i have no DWA scorpions, and no real wish to (i know, i'm a woosy ), i see no reason to ban the advertising of them here or on other places as long as the seller makes it clear that it is a licensed species they are selling, and more importantly they satisfy themself that the buyer holds the required paperwork.

The whole DWA system stinks as far as i'm concerned, i feel thatit should've been a centralised system because as it stands local authorities can do as they please in order to dissuade the keeping of DWA, my authority wants close on £1000 for a license, 20 miles up the road it's under £150.

[Neil Richardson]

Perhaps to help regulate this a little more, we could make it so that DWA can only be sold through the BTS Classified, and not through the bulletin board.

Should help eliminate Joe Pubic from buying a DWA species unknowingly and getting bitten.

[Ray Gabriel]

The BTS does claim that part of its remit includes the keeping of scorpions in captivity. From what I can tell the majority of DWA adverts posted refer to the Buthid scorpions, which are also the most commonly kept family of scorpions among dedicated scorpion keepers, and the single largest family of the order.

The DWA is already a massive imposition on the scorpion hobby (and an unfair one when the toxicology of the buthids is actually understood…but that’s another argument ), for the BTS to make obtaining these scorpions even harder would be a shame. As the major representative of arachnoculture in the UK it would be nice to see the BTS show some sort of solidarity with scorpion keepers. True there is large network of breeders in the EU/US who exchange many Buthid scorpions but getting into the scorpion hobby in the UK can be very hard due to the fact that that so few species are readily available and most species are only available through personal contacts. The BTS classifieds is one the few (and most specific) UK only resources that can allow novice keepers some access to anything other then the standard Pandinus/ Heterometrus species.

I’m a long time BTS member who only keeps scorpions and I think it would be fair to say that I probably have the largest collection of DWA act listed scorpions in the UK (that I know of at least), so I speak with some experience. I think it would be shame if the BTS banned the advertising of DWA species since it would only serve as a limitation on the propagation of some of the most commonly kept scorpion species in captivity and makes the BTS’s online resources substantially less interesting/relevant to scorpion keepers (i.e some of its members).

Anyway that was my little rant

WOW what an excelent post, with many views i share on DWA.

Zabius fuscus for example from what little i know is a Buthid which, like the vast majority of Buthids, is pretty harmless, but as the licencing people do not have the money to employ people to identify what scorps are what, they have all been (wrongly) dumped under one group.

Yes the DWA has its falling points, but IMHO it is a good thing to have. What i really object to is the fact that it is local authority controled and here is Swindon it is £450 (last time i heard) to apply, while 11 miles away it is £50 including a pet shop licence.

OSJ, you bring up some very valid points and i do not consider your posting a rant.

I have known a couple of UK scorp keepers which also have DWA licences and all acted very sensibly with thier animals, even to the point where one friend (saddly no longer with us Mark Evans) even (though i knew what he kept) gave me a "speach" about what he had in his room, and the precautions to be taken etc, before he unlocked the door of his scorp room which also contained spiders, now i dont think you can get that much "serious and dedicated" than that, which just goes to show how many of the DWA keepers really are.

OSJ i understand your feelings about the "caution" which has to be used regarding DWA species being sold on open web sites ( someone without a DWA ending up in hospital would only make matters worse for all of us). I am sure you can understand where we are comming from, the protection of web masters (and the people who visit the sites)against being sued for allowing DWA species to advertised for sale, and we are trying nnot to be predudiced to anyone,and from what i can remeber i think you are the first DWA keeper to ever post on this website.

I ask you if you can think of any other ways (a locked forum for example) only open to people who have a DWA licence to access?? or some thing which might solve this situation.

I dont know.......... i am asking you for sugestions please,

The BTS IS PRO SCORP but very few of its members submit anything to do with scorps for publication. As you are obviously an experianced scorp keeper, would you consider submitting some articles for the BTS journal? I am sure they would be very much appreciated. Once some one starts writing about scorps they may entice other people to start keeping scorps and maybe move onto thier DWA

Its all right to have a journal which also covers scorps as long as we have people who are willing to submit articles. i have not long sent one for possible future publication on E. flavicaudius in the UK, but the mayority of the stuff i write is spider related which is my "thing". I think the majority of Arachnid keepers in the UK are spider people, we just need more people from the other arachnid groups to present stuff for publication to equall the balance.

I really appreciate your post, it brings a whole new light into the people who keep scorps, and it is very good to see that there are BTS members who must wait very paitently for something which is applicable to thier field to appear in te journal.

I look forward to your reply and ideas if you care to do so,

Cheers

Ray

[Adam Smith]

I own more spiders than scorpions but I for one would like to see more information on scorpions out on the net. I have a book on scorpions but isnt as detailed as the books on ts I have or even on the net. I hope to increase my scorpion collection and would like to have more in depth articles on species including Buthids and various species.
Also i am a bit confused on the DWA lisence, how is it a lisence can cost X amount and just down the road costs next to nothing?

[Mark Pennell]

I think it would be shame if the BTS banned the advertising of DWA species since it would only serve as a limitation on the propagation of some of the most commonly kept scorpion species in captivity and makes the BTS’s online resources substantially less interesting/relevant to scorpion keepers (i.e some of its members).

OSJ
Please let me assure you I have no intention of banning DWA adverts, if that was the case why did we include a DWA section in the classifieds. Or indeed put the notice on the Bulletin board.

What concerned me and thus I acted upon was that despite my notice adverts constantly appeared with hot species and did not follow the rule about posting such.
Hence I contacted them and Thomas and Herwig graciously understood and sent apologies and Thomas posted his retraction which led Ray into posting.

However I hear what your saying and to this end;
After having had a restless night wondering and thinking on what best to do I have updated the header file of the BTS Bulletin Board, and updated the BTS guide to D.W.A. It’s bigger, bolder and more information packed. It’s a lot more in your face and should not be missed by anyone.

This of course does mean there is no excuse not to post adverts that follow this basic and simple rule and I will continue to delete (never done this BTW), edit and eventually prevent constant offenders from posting and should assure you of my commitment to DWA keepers in the UK.

This also picks up on JM Gleggs comments regarding DWA and how people might not know or understand what D.W.A is.

Please have a look and see if this is OK...

As long as I run this site I will support DWA keepers although I don't keep hot species my self I understand that others do. I have an obligation to protect the BTS from litigation which is a rising trend here in the UK and have a duty protect the public from buying unaware.

Regards
Mark

P.S Should anyone have any suggestions regards this web site and its content please email me personally? I reply to all emails as soon as I can.

Or indeed if anyone wishes to write pages for the site and submit these I will be happy to add them, after review. This site is for the society and its membership is welcome to contribute.


Regards
Mark
BTS IT Dept

[Dave Gunter]

The big problem Adam with the DWA system is that the list of species is controlled by a central body (DEFRA) who were overruled by parliament on the administration of the license.
DEFRA wanted a centralised and standardised system but the issue and administration of licenses was passed to the various local authorities and more importantly though the charges are also allowed to be set by the local authority hence the huge differences in costs.
The guidelines issued to the local authorities though state the the cost of a license should only be sufficient to cover reasonable administration charges and MUST NOT be set at a level as to dissuade people from applying, this is exactly what my authority has done (they have admitted that to me in writing), hence my challenging them as to their charges.
To find your local charge, go to your council website and search it for DWA or Dangerous wild animal and see what they charge.

[Niklas Eriksson]

Does a zoo need DWA to keep venomous snakes as well? Or is the DWA only for private persons?

[Adam Smith]

I would assume that zoos would require lisences for variou things, I know that pet shops who have dangerous animals need a lisence though it is generally from what ive seen in pet shops is of their collection and not for sale to public. I think DWA is a available for private and public people though each case would be assessed and see if deemed acceptable for a lisence.