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**Larry Shone** · 09-01-07, 11:47 PM

hi chris and welcome! i would say your B.smithi will be well happy in that exo tank,30 x 30 is a foot square,plenty of room for a growing T. B.smithi is a slow grower so i'm told and so it will be fine,too big a tank can be a bad idea too as any food introduced has more room to roam and get up to mischief!

**Larry Shone** · 09-01-07, 11:51 PM

oh and another thing,as yours is a terrestrial species floor space is much more important than height. they will climb the walls and if they fall from too high they can do some serious damage to themselves so a low and wide tank is safest when they're small.

**J M Clegg** · 10-01-07, 09:32 AM

Hi all,

I am probably going to start another long debate here (again), but........

I don't buy into the whole "too much room is a bad thing". I know many of our highly respected fellow keepers say that it's best to have a spider in a tank / Vivarium suited to the spiders size, and all the arguments for food items being able get up to mischief etc, and of course that it makes the job of the spider finding food more difficult etc. But................... (and there’s always a but).

How do spiders go on in the wild? - with no restrictions on tank size, and food that may only cross their paths when opportunity presents it. They manage just fine, they have done so since way before the dinosaurs roamed the earth.

On tank size, my personal opinion is that you could house a sling in 4ft fish tank if you wanted and the sling would happily live like that, just like it was a wild and open space. It would find food just like it did in the wild and it would be just as happy. I’m not saying you should do this – no way! I wouldn't personally do it either because it would present me with lots of problems as a keeper, locating the sling etc. The problems that a large tank/viv presents to the keeper are more relevant than the problems it presents to the actual spider. With a small tank/viv then it's easier for the keeper to locate and monitor the spider, but the spider should not be viewed as the limiting factor. It's our desire to monitor and control the spider that is the restricting factor. We need the most convenient size of Viv for our needs, not what the spider needs. In many respects we should be suggesting the minimum size requirements for what a spider requires, rather than the maximum.

Keeping slings in film cases is the result of making it easier to manage a collection of slings rather than having them eat each other as they would in the wild. It is not a requirement of a sling to ensure it can be fed, it is the need of the keeper to ensure minimum losses. This is not a bad thing, not by any stretch. But again the spider is not the limiting factor here it's the keeper.

Provided a spider has plenty of cover and somewhere to live and hide it will not be nervous. Poking hands and regular interruptions make spiders nervous, they are not agoraphobic! Don't prod and poke and you will have a happy spider. Even a very aggressive spider will be happy if left alone. People still forget that essentially we are keeping wild animals in captivity. The objective should be to make an environment suited to the species being kept and as natural as possible. This for many keepers presents a problem because it means that the chances of actually viewing the spiders are reduced.

It's our needs as keepers that limit the tank sizes not the best needs of the spiders.

I expect to take a fair amount of flak now!!!!

**lee smith** · 10-01-07, 10:11 AM

if the spider is spending alot of time on the side of the tank, it may mean you have the substrate too wet, or he may not like the medium that you are using for substrate.

**Adam Smith** · 10-01-07, 11:45 AM

A great number of species spend most of their lives in burrows that may be as much as 1 foot to 2 meters deep but the chamber they live in may be the size of large coffee mug and will be happily content and rarely going much further than a couple feet from the burrow.With the exception of males in search of females who will travel good lengths over the region. On the flip side to this a larger tank may give the tarantula chance to go exploring and looking around terrain which if given a small enclosure cant do so. As well as this there is scope to create a great natural set up so it looks like a miny jungle. This may be great if someone has 1 or mabe 3 taranutlas and wants to incorporate it into a central coffee table style in the middle of the room which looks stunning but if you are a big collector or in this day and age a breeder a large tank takes up a huge amount of space. overall I would personally house small ts in (not tiny) but adequate size for the t and space for the rest. I dont agree or disagree with anyone who thinks that ts should be kept in small tanks its really more the fact that people want to maximise the space they have with as many ts which is what its really about. I love to walk into somones room with an exo terrium glass tank set up visually with a huge Poecilotheria metallica as opposed to plastic cereal boxes.

**Larry Shone** · 10-01-07, 01:45 PM

well all my Ts,apart from the psalm,are in the same size tank,a plastic microwave tub with lid,a little wider than the containers that crickets come in. its about right size for my chile rose but are huge for my tiny B.albopilosa and the Yamia slings,but they are OK. Cant see the Yamia as its made a burrow but there you go!

**J M Clegg** · 10-01-07, 05:17 PM

I agree with Adam - you cannot beat seeing a well aranged, natural terranium with a single specimin housed. If it looks natural then the animal being housed in it will feel natural.

Maybe we should start a "house it natural" campaign. Seem's more relevant than a real name campaign to me. (Although I am in no way intimating that the campaign for real names isn't relevant Mark!)

Jay.

**Jas Lambert** · 10-01-07, 07:50 PM

Out of interest Chris - how long was it before you introduced any food to the T?

**chris lock** · 10-01-07, 08:13 PM

thanks for all the comments this site is just what i was lookin for!!!!

first off. im going to keep my b.smithi in his exo tank. i see him him all the time hes either under his log all hes on the side of the tank but he,s only been doing that since he molted last friday.
i think the substrate is fine. its a mix of vermucilite and peat and right now it 70 degrees humidity.

the exo tank looks great in my flat and i have it in one corner away from the light. im a bit concerned he might climb and fall and hurt himself/her because the substrate only comes as high as the front doors. i have the heat mat on all the time on lower part of tank and the spider never goes above the mat so if it stays like that will be ok

he molted on friday and ive not fed him since he always refused food in the past so yet to see him eat, but ive got new crickets coming tommorow as the ones i had grew so large i think they may be too big!!!!!

**chris lock** · 10-01-07, 08:17 PM

by the way whats a sling?? this is my first tarantula, but quite interested in getting a grammostola pulchra(brazillian black)now! but id like a little tiny one this time so i can really watch him grow

**Ray Hale** · 10-01-07, 08:18 PM

Having kept my spiders in many different tank sizes and styles I find that there are plus and minuses to them all. When I first started I kept my tarantulas in pristine natural set ups usually quite large. This had no detrimental effect on them and was both pleasing to the eye and made great conversation points. The only downside to it was keeping the tanks at the right humidity and I admit I lost a few to dehydration ( Hey I was young!). As time progressed I acquired more and more and space became an issue. My tanks got smaller to allow them to fit onto my newly built shelves. They turned to plastic ( The shelves were put up by me....say no more). It became a way of life, feeding them watering them mating them and remains today. The downside to large numbers with smaller tanks is that you probably dont spend as much time with them as you should. Smaller tanks does ensure your spider gets its food quicker but as JM says this would not be the case in the wild.

Truth is in my opinion there is no wrong or right way to keep them. If you are happy with your set up, the spider is feeding and is healthy then you are doing something right.

Lets have you thoughts on it though.

Ray

**Ray Gabriel** · 10-01-07, 10:02 PM

I have not read all the posts word for word, but first i must ask Chris, where is the heatmat placed and how deep is the substrate? the spider might be climbing to get away from excess heat if the heat hat is placed under the tank, best place it on the side or if the lid is insulated under the lid.

I also sugest you give the spider a good depth of coir substrate to dig in (about half the tank depth), they are a burrowing species and burrow to get away from the heat, (which is why i sugested placing the heatmat inside the lid).

any other questions please post up.

In regards to so called "natural habitat" tanks, i have seen lots of these ilustrated on websites and i must say that for "natural" tanks i have yet to see (the species we are calling) G. pulchra in a dry tank which has a good 8 inches of soil covered with lots of stones with 1 big stone with a hole for the spider to live in, heated by an overhead spotlight on 12 / 12 timer (to imitate the sun), as you would find them in the wild. Or a tank with a rotting tree stump with a hole at the base for a spider to live under, or designed to form a vertical bank face of compressed dirt with a few projecting small stones in basicly a barren tank, these are the sorts of places spiders TRULLY live in "natural habitats". I have also never seen a 6 foot tall tank with 3 feet deep substrate with tall grass growing in it for some Aphonopelmas and Grammastolas. And i ahve never seen "natural tanks" with the variety of other wildlife i have found close to spider burrows. ok that is getting a bit pedantic.

One thing MANY PEOPLE forget about keeping spiders .....THEY ARE SPIDERS....they have no real concept of the fact they are no longer in thier native Chile, or Borneo or for captive bred stuff Birmingham or Stuttgart LOL, they have no concept of "natural tank" . They can respond to to much/little heat, moisture, food, light, natural climate adjustments but not to the fact that if they are given a large nicely planted up tank they will live any longer breed better etc, in fact if you give a P. regalis adult female a 12" cube or a 4 foot cube to live in she will still live in and around a single piece of bamboo tube (if she is lucky enough to be given one).

If people are going to give thier spiders "natural habitats" then what about the night time drop, the dry and wet seasons, the annual winter period (if they have one) how do they replicate these? in a wet/dry season tank do you use the correct plants which are adapted to wet and dry seasons? rember the more basic the tank the easier it is for maintenance and less disturbance to the ocupant(s). so if you dont have drought hardy plants and you give your spider a dry season dont expect the plants to grow back again.

I have writen about finding Poecilotheria in the wild in tree holes which go UP the tree but yet (myself included i must admit) people still give them tubes which go DOWN the opposite direction, and least those are the lucky spiders who have tubes most have the obligitory piece of cork bark (i dont know any theraphosid species which commes from cork bark forrests?).

Most spiders are given environments which the OWNERS THINK look "natural" for the spider, when in fact the spiders require something small and dark to hide in, and have no concept of the HUMAN emotions "likeing, happy, unhappy" etc.

If you want to give spiders something close to a "natural habitat" to live in, think natural to the spider, give them something dark in relation to thier size to hide in during the day with some uninterupted leg room at night so they can detect thier prey easier, that will be more "natural" to the spider than keeping a species in a glass tank with a bit of bark to hide under which never makes them feel secure as it lets in plenty of light.

I look forward to any replies

Ray

**Larry Shone** · 10-01-07, 10:37 PM

chris,a sling is a spiderling-i remember asking the same question on this site last year so don't feel embarrassed to ask questions.
now on the subject of keeping things natural well we have no idea how to with many species. my chile rose for example,i don't think anyone's spent time in the atacama desert long enough to study them so we're just guessing really. also with pokies etc putting plants in means giving them light which Ts dislike.

**Warren Beattie** · 10-01-07, 11:39 PM

JM Clegg

"How do spiders go on in the wild? - with no restrictions on tank size, and food that may only cross their paths when opportunity presents it. They manage just fine, they have done so since way before the dinosaurs roamed the earth.

On tank size, my personal opinion is that you could house a sling in 4ft fish tank if you wanted and the sling would happily live like that, just like it was a wild and open space. It would find food just like it did in the wild and it would be just as happy."

Trouble is, human houses and the tanks/containers in them are not 'the wild'. I'm certainly no expert on tarantula habitats and recreation of the same, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that more space doesn't necessarily mean more natural. I having a feeling that monitoring and maintaining some kind of adequate microclimate might be as easy, if not easier, in a plastic food tub than a four foot tank, anyway.

And what's this about happy? Who says 'the wild' is happy? Who says slings won't starve in 'the wild', let alone survive the rest of Mother Nature's (and humanity's) tender ministrations?
I could go on at length, but it'd only make me sound like more of a ranting nutter than I already do. But this is why tarantulas have hundreds of offspring at a time. 'The wild' keeps splatting them.

"I’m not saying you should do this – no way! I wouldn't personally do it either because it would present me with lots of problems as a keeper, locating the sling etc. The problems that a large tank/viv presents to the keeper are more relevant than the problems it presents to the actual spider."

Sounds like you just denied your own argument. :S And I'd've thought the problems of the keeper would be very relevant to the spider! Think about it.

"If it looks natural then the animal being housed in it will feel natural."

Feels natural... to who? The spider or the keeper? The former: I'm not so sure. It sounds like the relevant-to-keeper statement just turned round to take a bite.

JM, please don't take too much offence at all this. I don't mean it as a personal attack; it's just that the nebulous, too-perfect, 'Circle of Life' view people can have of 'the wild' pushes my buttons.

Adam Smith

"I love to walk into somones room with an exo terrium glass tank set up visually with a huge Poecilotheria metallica as opposed to plastic cereal boxes."

Depends on how willing the pokie is to show itself, I suppose.

EDIT: I didn't see Ray Gabriel's post before posting mine; but I'd just like to say 'hear hear'!

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