Dyskenetic syndrome

[Stuart Collins]

i think it is fair to say we have drifted off topic just a tad as we were coming up with the best way to kill a T. that was dying a painful death. so i agree with Brian blunt force to squish the poor thing will end it asap. anyone have any other methods?

[Colin D Wilson]

ethyl acetate as i mentioned back on page 2 is a reasonably quick way, been used for many many years in entomological studies, lepidoptera display preparation etc etc.

drifting off topic slightly, but still remaining in the general ball park i think is acceptable, we should all have the chance to put forward our views creatively.
i think this thread has had many valid points offered and will be used as reference in the future for others to make their minds up about this "slightly" delicate subject.

[Stuart Collins]

wow i can see my name in the history books already! lol! if this will be referred to i would like to add that although this debate has become heated it has all been kept friendly and clean, or at least on my side it has.

[James Box]

well Mark's pretty chilled as well, it seems, so that's cool.
it's always bound to be a topic loads disagree on, anyways. debate leads to greater information availability, which leads to people making at least informed choices.

[Bryan_Dennis]

debate leads to greater information availability, which leads to people making at least informed choices.

Yes, that would be the perfect scenario but almost all research shows that we do what we want to when given a choice that doesn't directly affect us...
If you belong to the house of mice feeders then you will agree with the statements that back up your own feelings and disagree with those that don't.......Very few people when left to the privacy of their own mind will let something like public opinion or good arguments sway them....unless there's a good flip side...

If on the other hand you are completely neutral in a given situation you will automatically be inclined to accept which ever statements most closely match your own perceived reality........Lawyers know all about this and use a lot of effort in profiling and selecting juries.

Hmmm, I was going to use this last paragraph to try and slide back on topic but after 15 mins of head scratching i've got to admit i don't know anymore than is written in this and a few other foriegn threads about Dyskenetic syndrome.
As for the euthanasia question i feel like i've made my views clear and considering the simpleness of it (blunt instrument/paving slab) can't really see how i can embellish on it anymore....although if anyone does know of a method that is less messier but with the same effectiveness/minimal animal contact (the animals feelings, not mine!) then i'd like to hear of it..

[Nils Croes]

As a person who has also lost a tarantula to this syndrome I find it important to collect all possible information about this syndrome as possible, such as the conditions it was living in, the age of the tarantula and the location it was gotten from. This hasn't really been done, and reading through this topic made me upset and kind of angry. Where it started off properly it ended up being a discussion on the most humane way of killing a tarantula.

Agreed this is also very important as sometimes euthanizing the tarantula is the only solution to a problem it might have, whilst I really do not recommend it. This discussion would however have been more apropriate in a new topic or an existing topic on that subject. I am relatively certain that people will come onto these boards to search valuable information, and searching on 'dyskinetic syndrome' or 'euthanizing tarantula' might give people a subject they do not need or want to read.

On to the real topic now.

From doing a bit of quick web research it seems, in simple terms, in tarantulas Dyskinetic syndrome is a loss of control over the nervous system

Whilst I appreciate your research on this it has not been done thoroughly enough for you to conclude this, as you said 'quick web research'. I have found that many people are misinformed about this syndrome assigning different effects to it or just misunderstanding what it is really meant when terms like 'uncontrollable movement' are mentioned. The first task would be to give this syndrome more attention so that everyone can read up on it with hopefully less people confusing this with other things.

Then and only then we can start collecting real information about this.

due to either parasites / fungus / bacteria or pesticide laden foodstuff, that seems to be the census of the arach' forums.

This information can be legitimate, but once again without more and more thorough research making a conclusion like such is in my opinion wrong. People have mentioned contagiousness, which I doubt. Reporting multiple cases of this after spotting a first and concluding that it is contagious is wrong once more. If the cause of the syndrome is pesticide laden foodstuff or pesticide to begin with for example then it spreads through either the food or the air, automatically affecting more than one tarantula. A tarantula under the influence of pesticides however is not very like at all to spread this around.

To take it even further up to a level where I might bring controversy into the picture will be me saying that most if not all things labeled * syndrome in the human medical world are not contagious, but do arise from the same causes. To take the most obvious syndrome for example: the syndrome of down. One of the causes of this syndrome is when two relatives have a child with each other. Commonly reffered to as inbreeding. Due to similar genetic structures a child can be born with this syndrome. This does however not mean that other humans that come in contact with this child will also be "infected" with this. The point as such being that the chances are so much higher with inbreeding, meaning that this would be one of the causes of the syndrome. Parkinson is another one of these things.

I hope you can still follow me.

So up to now we can assume that people who have encountered dyskinetic syndrome may also have been in contact with pesticides. Making it one cause of the syndrome, but not the general cause or biggest cause. From my own experience and notes on this I lost one Brachypelma albopilosum spiderling. I had two in total which I recieved from one and the same person at the same time and they had not been treated differently.

During the time I had both of these spiderlings I treated both them both on the same way, both were placed on substrate from the same location and package (which was a combination of vermiculite and peat moss) on which the still living spiderling is still kept today. Both recieved food items from the same package at the same time, and in both cases they were taken care of at the same time and with the same tools. Both were in an identical container that had been washed at the same time and with the same product.

Only one of the two spiderlings started showing signs of Dyskinetic syndrome, and due to me being uninformed about this syndrome at the time of it starting I never once moved this tarantula away from my other tarantulas nor did I care for him as last or first or at another time than caring for my other tarantulas. None of the tarantulas it was in the same room with even in the space have shown any signs of the syndrome since the death of the spiderling (there were only two other tarantulas at the time however) and both of the other tarantulas have been doing well and have molted since.

So if they would indeed also be infected with this then signs should have appeared already appeared as mentioned earlier these signs should appear after about a month of a molt. But they haven't. So either they are not infected or the time at which signs start showing is inaccurate and different for every tarantula. This is the time I'm starting to rule out causes like pestices or pesticide infected foods cause I never come in contact with pesticides and the used food has been used on multiple animals without any distinct death or illness occuring.

There was no fungus to be found anywhere, nor were there parasites to be found. And if there indeed were parasites then they should have spread to the other tarantulas which they obviously didn't as no signs have appeared. So the cause of the syndrome in my case has to be different however still unknown.

It's obviousely apparent in the hobby, but i never came across it when i wrote my paper on parasitology for my degree, mind you that was a while ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth

will have to pay a visit to the university library.

I am glad that you haven't yet come across with this syndrome and hope that you never will, but it is indeed a fact that it is apparent in the hobby. Whilst more reports have been done about this syndrome making me tempted to say it is becoming more and more apparent, I will not say that. I'm not saying it because there are more and bigger communities these days and more and more people find ways to report this, while 10 perhaps 5 years ago people weren't informed about this syndrome and I am unsure on how long it has been described. People usually also didn't have the resources to report it.

To add to the subject there have been reports about tarantulas recovering from this syndrome after molting or after having spent time in an area with a very dense and warm humidity (a shower for example). This doesn't however seem to work in most cases and a major thing even is that we are unsure wether the reported case really was a case of dyskinetic syndrome. Up until today the only plausible way of determining wether a tarantula has this syndrome or not is through the signs such as not having controll over it's nervous system. Unfortunately we do not yet know what this syndrome looks like in the tarantulas blood or hemolymph, like we already can in humans to determine wether one has A.I.D.S. (Acquired immune deficiency syndrome) for example.

The problem is that we don't even know if it is present in hemolymph. I haven't done the necessary studies to research this, but do think that people who have the resources should research it.

Lastly I do not know if Dyskinetic syndrome has ever been written about or thoroughly mentioned in a BTS journal due to not (yet) being a member of BTS, but if it hasn't it should definately get some attention in the journal. Finding out more about this syndrome is important for the tarantula hobby and for tarantulas as a whole. It does not form a threat to any of these yet, but perhaps could in the future making it ever so important to ensure the lives of many species.

Nils Croes

[Colin D Wilson]

Hi Nils.

I was, at first, wondering why the only quotes you refered to were mine (in fact i read through again to see if i'd made sense). Then it became apparent that this was, in fact, the only post with any real mention on the syndrome, so i understand the reasoning behind your first paragraph.

The "quick bit of research" and further enquiries in and around the hobby since then has sparked my interest and i'm using what spare time i have to delve deeper into this.

I will be writing a "paper" on my findings, and will be enlisting some help from a few medical research associates.

I was going to leave this part untill i had formed the basis of the study, but i shall ask now....
If any one has kept a written account on the loss of their tarantulas / inverts that displayed the syptoms of this synrome then please either email or pm them to me (acknowledgement will be given when written up for the journal).

You say you have notes on yours Nils, i would be grateful if you could forward these to start the ball rolling as it were.

as a long shot...if any one has preserved a specimen lost to this syndrome then please pm me, hang onto it and i shall send for (or collect) when needed.

regards

Colin

[Nils Croes]

At this point I haven't got any sensible notes, and most of the information is stored in my head. Saying you want to write a paper on this including help from medical resources is a relief because this needs to be done. As mentioned earlier I find that not enough (conclusive and thorough) information is available on this.

If you are indeed going to go through with this paper then I would certainly like to offer my help writing this paper. The thing however is that not many people have really kept any notes on this syndrome or even paid much attention to it (I'm not saying I am better in this area, but atleast I have been spending time on it). I was thinking of locating these reports and personally contacting the author (via e-mail, personal messaging or written mail) to collect more information.

[Stuart Collins]

correct me if i am wrong but this thread wasn't started because someone was interested about the syndrome but because he wanted to stop his T. from dying from it, then it became too ill to survive, and we were trying to stop it suffering, therefore making what we were saying very relebant as we were helping and answering his questions, which is what the forum is all about. i do agree that this maybe could have been put into another thread, but really it gently faded in and merged with this topic so it would be hard to find a dividing line where we should have stopped. i think you information on dyskinetic syndrome is very valid and helpful, but are you sure it shouldn't be in a different, new topic to make what is said more clearly understood, but it isn't off topic either, as was our posts.

[Colin D Wilson]

You're quite right stuart, we have drifted between the two topics, but as always with this forum retained an aire of decorum and discussed the two topics in depth sensibly.

I think, though, that the two topics are relevant to each other because of Kains first post. The thread is easy to follow at present and i think seperating the two would confuse matters a little for fresh readers, and reduce the emphasis on the majority of the valid points made too.

[Nils Croes]

I can only agree with Colin on this one Stuart. As previously stated it would probably have been better if the humane way of killing was done in a new topic, it still has a close connection to this syndrome because as of now I don't think that it can be cured and will eventually result in the spider's death.

The thing that made me say this however was, as previously stated, because I was upset at how little attention this syndrome was getting whilst it is (as far as I know and am concerned) a deadly something we are talking about. I myself prefer letting nature go its course, because maybe it all comes down to us not being to put up with the look of a suffering animal.

[Christian Elowsky]

I think the first move would to remove the moniker "dyskenetic syndrome", as referred to by Colin with humans, it is a well defined condition.

In our hobby, it's just some name grabbed from other (medical) fields. Implying it is well understood or characterized.

It is not.

In some cases tarantulas walk in a wobbly fashion and fall over. In some they sprint off only to have the legs starting acting independent of each other. In others the spider is immobile basically, with slight tremors...

A syndrome it is not.

At a glacial pace, the ATS is trying to get some veterinarians involved in tarantula care, and at that point, maybe those professionals will coin another term.

That's where it starts for me. The cause of all of these symptoms is also just as unknown. Pesticide exposure, dehydration, parasite loads, "genetic problems", and nutritional deficiencies have been sallied forth as causes, but to my knowledge, only known pesticide exposure has any supporting evidence.

I am sorry to hear of you loss even if it was some time ago. Do you have any suspects for the cause?

Christian

[Nils Croes]

I think the first move would to remove the moniker "dyskenetic syndrome", as referred to by Colin with humans, it is a well defined condition.

In our hobby, it's just some name grabbed from other (medical) fields. Implying it is well understood or characterized.

I was tihnking this earlier today when I was browsing for this term on the web. The syndrome with humans is quite different from the one we are dealing with. The biggest problem however is that the term "Dyskinetic syndrome" is already widespread under the hobbyists. Appointing a different name to it will cause confusion.

The thing is that you can't just go around and appoint a different name because what everyone wants is for a correct name to appear. In order to get this far we would have to know the symptoms and causes, perhaps even through scientific studies looking at hemolymph comparing that of a healthy tarantula with that of an ill tarantula. By doing these studies one may also find the cause. If someone shouts pesticides then all I think is that it is not proven, and to in fact prove that it is or isn't true one would have to conduct expiriments with healthy tarantulas. It could and would involve killing the animals and in the end that's not what we want.

[Christian Elowsky]

Here in the US, we had a species of tarantula that was called Lasiodora cristata for over a decade. As it turns out, this was a misidentified species, which was actually Nhandu chromatus. I don't know of anyone still trying to use the incorrect name for that same spider.

So, we CAN change a label, and quite easily. As this "syndrome" has next to no information attached to it, especially nothing that is not anecdotal, then any perceived "loss" is nothing more than shedding the dead weight of misinformation being disseminated by the Internet.

Holding onto an old idea for the sake of convenience is like providing tarantulas with sponges in their water dishes. We are in new hobby, with a tiny following (compared to say hermit crabs, birds or mammals), so accuracy and rapid change is readily achieved, even across the globe. This is supported by the fact that the same misnomer was invented and illy propagated only on the Internet.

Unless someone has a peer reviewed journal reference?

Christian

[Nils Croes]

As I mentioned earlier in this topic there is next to no information on this other than assumed causes and seen symptoms. Don't get me wrong though, I don't want to keep a name for the sake of convenience. I would probably be one of the first in line to change this mismoner (as you call it) I was reffering to other people.

I have started writing about this illness and whilst doing so constantly reffered to "Dyskinetic syndrome", but if what you say of it not being a syndrome is correct then a big part of the written lecture is useless. The problem is that due to the fact that no scientific studies have been done about this it is not yet possible to change its name, unless you would appoint a general name to label the already known symptoms.