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Whats the difference between A. avics and A.metallica? I've heard metallicas our whitetoes and avics are pink toes but I have also read they are the same and also read metallicas our pinktoes lol, I'm confuse
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Actually it is not a silly question, the answer is NO ONE KNOWS.
With the exception of A. laeta, versicolour, minatrix, purpurea, hirshi, no one knows what species we have for sure in the hobby. And dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
Avicularia avularia is the type for the genus as well as the species and untill thathas been redescribed etc, then none of the rest really stand as valid species. And afull revision of this genus would take years.
Sorry not the answer you wanted
Ray -
Are you saying A. avicularia and A. metallica are the same species?Comment
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Thats what I'm trying to find outComment
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Originally posted by Sripol Asanasavest View PostNo, what Ray is saying is that the Avicularia genus is in such a mess that currently, with the exception of the named species in his post, nobody knows what is in the hobby.Originally posted by Abi Skeet View Post
To be 100% sure of an ID, any spider (or anything that has been taxonomically classified) needs to be compared with the type (the original specimen, deposited by whoever identified and classified it in the first place) of the species, or at least keyed with the papers (and any revisions) identifying and describing that species within the genus. Until this is done, then no one can be 100% sure of any ID.
Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Some genera are monotypic (in that they only have one species in them), so it becomes slightly more straightforward.
To work on an entire genus, particularly an extensive one such as Avicularia and revise it would take years and years. It is a massive undertaking involving the examination of many museum specimens (hundreds at least), and the review of masses of scientific papers.
The types can become lost or misplaced, can be originally misidentified, and all this needs to be checked and sorted out before publication. The differences in the species need to be discovered and mapped, photographed etc. etc.
Even publication itself can take a number of years from submission of a paper, to peer review, approval, and to finding space in whatever journal it is to be published in.
(The above is a massive over simplification and I'll probably get strangled by some irate and indignant taxonomist, but it gives you some idea
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Some unscrupulous dealers will import spiders with whatever name is popular (and will attract most money) at the time, and you need great experience to identify spiders with certainty.
There is a recent example with Avicularia sp. "Amazonica", where people were being sold Avicularia sp. "Peru purple" (or whatever it is these days) as amazonica, and being charged prices many times higher for them than they would have paid for sp. "Peru purple".
Lots of avics look very similar, and it is also easy to confuse them (either deliberately or accidentally) when breeding them.Comment
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Wouldn't it be possible to do a few at a time though, instead of the whole Avic family at once? Some of the more common ones such as A. metallica, A. braunaseni, A. bicegoti, A. geroldi for example? Then build on that. As there is a 'type' species wouldn't this be an easier way forward?sigpicHate is for people who find thinking a little too complicated!
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I would say probably "YES" A. avicularia and metallica are the same species, I would also say that after reading the paper that A. a. Variagata is nothing more than a freshley moulted specimen.
I think that A. avicularia is extremely wide spread and highly variable, and that metallica is nothing more than a vatriant.
Nicola, the first one that needs to be done is the generic type A. avicularia, Braunshauseni and geroldi are nothing more (in my opinion) than regional variants of A.Avicularia, but the other thing with these 2 "species" is that there was NEVER any type material referanced when these were described so where was the bench mark to identify them from.
A. bicegoi. belongs in another "leg" of the Avicularia, there is a type for that again which has never been examined to name the hobby stuff, and again never compared against the generic type.
But the main thing here is that all these people who are trying to sell A. Avic, metallica, etc all they have are unidentifed Aviculoaria sp Guyana..................which as a name does not sell, but A. avicularia does.
There is a large article on Avicularia here:
RayComment
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This is a bit of a no win situation. A. avicularia, A.mettalica Braunshauseni and geroldi may be regional variations of the same species but they are some what distinctly different to each other. If they all get lumped under the same name A.sp. "Guyana" or A.sp. "Suriname" (i believe most of what gets labeled as A.mettalica comes from Suriname) you would risk losing these distinct variations because people breed any male sp. "Guyana" to any female sp. "Guyana" they had. Personally I think it is better to have both pink toes and white toes.But the main thing here is that all these people who are trying to sell A. Avic, metallica, etc all they have are unidentifed Aviculoaria sp Guyana..................which as a name does not sell, but A. avicularia does.
You could do a number system for each locality i.e. guyana1, guyana2 but this would get confusing a bit like the Pamphobeteus from Ecuador. It also has the problem that you have several collectors and shippers in Guyana each shipping a distinct locality(es) and numerous importers in Europe with the majority of which being reptile wholesalers who couldnt care less what they are.
Though the current names may be wrong and though its not perfect at least it is some system and order to the Avics we are keeping and trying to breed and will to some extent keep these distinct variations seperate.Comment
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All the Avics that have come in from Guyana (dont know of any one who exports from Suriname, though i am told that Suriname stuff comes from Guyana??) over the last 14? 15?16? years have ALL been called either A. avic or A. metallica, dosent matter what they have looked like in size colour or anything, if they were really that bothered about the spiders they would have given them different names, but like you said they couldnt care less.Originally posted by TheSpiderShop View Post
We do and the question was what is the diifferance, we dont know what the differance is, all we can do is log all the variations that come in, does anyone remeber the 5-6 inch bright blue ones which came in a few years back? where are they now???, or the medium ones covered in red rairs?
I agree that it goes some small way to keeping them apart but when you see freshley imported Avic Guyana sp being sold as A geroldi and A. braunshauseni by Dodgy Dealers &Co (you know who you are) then it sort of screws things up for everybody.
Lee you are the only guy (in the UK) who gets any of his w/c stuff checked out defore it goes for sale so you name it as close to what it can be, and you have a business to run, respect to you.
RayComment
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Really I suppose the only thing that has a chance of definitively 'sorting it out' is DNA analysis, although if we don't know what an A. avicularia is, then where do we start?Comment
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Great artcle on Avics Ray, to be honest I think both yourself and Lee are right. What's needed is for the 'type' information to be kept in one place for reference or if its been lost re-collected. The impression I get (probably wrong) is that the recorded info. is here, there and everywhere. Surely though naming the spiders could come down to the colouration, for example A. geroldi could become Avicularia sp. blue as distinguished from other Avic avics? Goodness knows.sigpicHate is for people who find thinking a little too complicated!Comment
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Colouration is not a reliable indentifier for spiders. Think how a spider looks colouration wise immediately after a moult to what it looks like before. Also some species (such as A. junodi and Aphonopelma spp.) are sexually dimorphic which would also be a problem.Comment
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That means I'll have have to remember how to spell juruensis when I go looking for my next Avic then. Help!sigpicHate is for people who find thinking a little too complicated!Comment
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Originally posted by Phil Rea View Post
Ahhhh! A breath of fresh air. You speak the truth, my friend!The Tarantula Whisperer!
Stan Schultz
Co-author, the TARANTULA KEEPER'S GUIDE
Private messaging is turned OFF!
Please E-mail me directly at schultz@ucalgary.caComment
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It's such a shame it is in the mess it's in...
I am personally a big fan of the genus. I keep various species and will breed (eventually) but only the identifable ones (e.g. versi, minatrix, purpurea etc) I have 4 of the so called Avicularia sp. "Guyana" but all are kept on my "pet shelf". That is that they won't be bred from, just kept as eye candy
If we haven't got anywhere to start i.e. the original "Avicularia avicularia" will this mess ever be sorted?Comment
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