Not a B Smithi

[Damien Calis]

Good afternoon,

I started this on the Arachnophiles forum, and was told to try my luck here.

Today I took delivery of a beautiful spider sold to me as a Mexican Red Knee, but it doesn't appear to be. The other spider is, according to the Arachophiles members, indeed a Smithi, but nobody seems sure what this one is...

Anybody have any guesses?

[Nicola Dolby]

Euathlus pulcherrimaklassi

[Ray Gabriel]

That is either a very dark B. smithi or a hybrid can you post some more pics? Where did you get it from?

Ray

[Damien Calis]

Hi Ray,

you are the first to say it may actually be a B Smithi.

What kind of of pictures would you like? I have taken two more just now.

Also measured him. He's approximately 4.5 inches leg span, and the body is roughly 6cm.

I bought him from someone on another forum. He's away at present, so can't really help us. All his girlfriend could tell me was that he bought the pair of them about 5 years ago, and that this one was male.

[Sonny Howdle]

E. Pulcherimiklassi. these are quite new to the hobby and i got what i thought was one and it isent, i still dont know what mine is but i now have a pulcherimiklassi and its the same as that one of yours.
i hope it is as its a very pretty spid and i have a female and if yours is a male then they could have some babys.
sonny

[Richard Gallon]

I'd say it was a Brachypelma hybrid too, with B. klaasi as one of the parent species. Interesting pet spider, but just don't use it for breeding!

It's not a Euathlus sp.

Cheers,
Richard

[Sonny Howdle]

i got lots to learn about spids so i think i must be wrong if richard says its not a pulchraimiklassi. sorry is i confused you damian but richard knows loads.
sonny

[Neil Richardson]

I thought G.aureostriata, so shows what i know :P

[Ray Gabriel]

I have been working on an article on Hybrids in the UK hobby for a couple of weeks, and looks like half of it will have to come out here.

In the following piece i am not talkin about 1 or 2 species under threat we are talking about 8 EIGHT at least where the DNA might be tainted..........not good.


I have talked with a couple of people and we all think the same thing, this is spider in the picture is very possibly a B. smithi X B. klassi hybrid (BTW we all came to the same conclusion independantly).

Damien if i get you a female pure bred B. smithi will you be willing to excahnge for your one? we have a friend working on Brachypelma DNA so we should be able to find out the mother at least, or i will exchange some Pokie slings for your specimen. (if it ends up with the person who sold it who knows where it might end up).

I am going to use this post as a chance to point to a few things which I have been asked to answer and reply to on a couple of threads on here and the BTS site.

Ok first things first:

The LAW:

In the UK we are covered by the law which states that if you buy something which then turns out not to be what it was advertised as then you are entitled to a full refind, the interesting thing here is the person selling the stock (not thier supplier, that comes under a different set of similar but differnet circumstances) is liable for the full refund and without question compensation for rearing etc for all the years it has taken to rear the specimen.

Remmeber in the eyes of (UK) law ignorance is not an excuse (which also covers "that is what i bought it as") so seller beware.

This is the main reason i stopped buying and selling other peoples captive bred stock as it all to often turned out NOT to be what it was sold as. Since then i only bred my own and with a few other selected peoples stock.

Secondly: this is not the first hybrid which has come to my attention in the past couple of weeks and it is now getting very worrying for the genetic purity of some species in the (UK) hobby. Now dont take this the wrong way the roots of some of these hybrids are not in the UK.

Right where how do these hybrids appear, well as can be seen from the posts of htis and other sites we have a classic scenario:
Someone buys a spider from someone unknown and then posts a pic of the spider on various websites asking for an identification which inevitably turns out to completely wrong and the spider is of trying to be bred with something from a totally different genus or species.

Now then in my personal opinion (as this is where i see many of these rediculose "photograph identifications" occuring) many of which are these 5 min wonder websites which have no really experianced people visiting them but are populated by (in reality) inexperainced people thinking they and each other are the greatest thing since sliced bread mainly because they all tell each other they are. (If you think i am talking about your site.............if the hat fits etc).

If you buy from these sites and get burned ..............its your own fault.

Another way hybrids can occur is the accidental matings "i bought this male gooty ivory salem spotted asian black and white india lankan ornimental from a pet shop and this guy knows what he is talking about because all his spiders have the REAL COMMON NAMES......has anyone got a female?".sound familiar?

And lo and behold another hybrid, when this occurs (which we have just found out it has) the breeder/ supplier needs to take full responsibility, not only that the only way to stop the specimens from that breeding being bred again is name the person and when they were sold.

In some countries males and females of the same species might not be readily avaliable (Mikhail you have said something about this in the past) so they try to breed similar species....and then sell the young.

The soloution (s):

STOP this picture ID on websites which have no experianced people in everyday attendance, you will find the most experianced (UK) people on the Tarantula Store, the BTS and Giant Spiders, ask there for help and give it a day or two for people to reply these people are very busy but they will reply when they get a chance.

Dont buy stuff with common names only if there is no scientific name then be carefull.

At present there is only ONE UK dealer who has his wild caught shipments checked out before he sells them and that is Lee from The Spider Shop. Lee is also in touch with most of the continents most conciencious breeders who will vouch for thier stock.

With more and more people breeding spiders some for the love of spiders others for money, Hybrids will start to make a more regular appearance.

Inbreed: FACT there is NO PROOF that inbreeding causes any problems with theraphosid spiders.............just alot of wild rumour and speculation based on ONE bad captive bred eggsac.............ONE.

BEFORE breeding spiders (if you are even slightly unsure) ASK on one of the 3 sites mentioned above.

There is an article for the BTS being worked on as we speak, watch out for the BTS journal or on the website for this article with pictures of the hybrids, be patient it will be comming soon.

Thank you for your time

Ray G

[Damien Calis]

Very educational, and a valuable lesson learnt. Also reminded me I need to become a member of the BTS, if you'll have an ignorant soul such as myself.

I'm glad I was directed to this forum, and very impressed how quickly you did come to a conclusion. As for sending you the spider in question, Ray (poor bugger doesn't realise how much of a fuss he's created), I will send you an e-mail through the forum.

Once again, thank you very much for your time and efforts (all of you), and
sorry for causing such an upheaval.

Damien

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Damien,

Dont apologise it is better everyone is aware of these chimeras than them being used for breeding. Look forward to your email.

Ray

[Damien Calis]

Couldn't send an e-mail because your profile is set not to receive them, so I sent you a Private Message last night, Ray.

[Ray Gabriel]

Mornin

Damien nothing arrived in my PM box???

I will delete a few and see what happens.

Ray

[Damien Calis]

Have tried again

[Damien Calis]

Any luck this time, Ray?

Very interesting debate going on on the other forum by the way. Am enjoying it greatly. Oh, and I joined the BTS yesterday. I'm obviously very susceptible to good advice.