avic species controversy??

[WayneYasinski]

in recent weeks, i have been in several discussions about avic species..... which ones are truly described and which ones are not? here's a link

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=108840

pg 3........
the main discussion seems to revolve around metallicas....are metallicas truly documented as such or are they off shoots of A.avicularia, braunshauseni, huriana ???? just looking for some clarification.....

[Colin D Wilson]

Hi Wayne and welcome

The Avicularia Genus is definitley in need of straightening up description wise, and as you say the metallica is near top of the list in many discussion.
I know there's a lot of taxonomists trying to make head or tail of it at the mo, some belonging to societies and some private ventures too.
Some i've spoke to say that the metallica seems to be a naturally occuring hybrid, of course theres disagreement with that so clarification, it seems, is way off yet.
I think this will be a long complex study, after all if some particular species can show different colouration, different adult size and body structure from one end of a river to the other it doesnt give us a good "control" to start off with.

[Mark Pennell]

Wayne
Yes indeed a touchy and controversial subject, I gave up keeping Avicularia a long time back as was impossible to know what you where breeding when people loaned you males supposedly from the same species.

When putting together the BTS Theraphosidae Gallery we considered leaving this genus off the list, however we have decided to do it this way and it might just give you an idea of what can be considered a distinct and valid species.

"Aviculariinae [Due to the many taxonomic issues with this genus and the ID of pet trade forms, we list only 5 species as distinct and have listed others in a manner that notes that the IDs are tentative and hobby-related]"

http://thebts.co.uk/forums/gallery/index.php/cat/752

As Colin rightly points out there are many goings on in the background to try and sort out things.....

Regards
Mark

[Ray Gabriel]

Hello,

Well that thread on arachnoboards is a bit embarassing, I am not a great taxonomist, in fact I am still serving my apprenticeship under Richard Gallon and Andy Smith. And i am certainly no expert an "ex is a has been and a spert is a drip under preasure", i am just experianced thats all. But it is very honouring to be held in such hi regard...thank you.

I have kept most of the species and colour forms of Avicularia and a condensed summary of what i have learned is here

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=8120

Which i have been asked to put into book form, which i am working on at present.

RE your question;

"are metallicas truly documented as such or are they off shoots of A.avicularia, braunshauseni, huriana ???? just looking for some clarification..... "

Firstly we must start with the type of the Genus Avicularia avicularia (The write up of our examination of the specimens in the Linnean collection is in the next BTS journal, so join up now for this REALLY EXCITING article).

Trust me when i say that at present NO ONE can say at 100% what Avicularia avicularia really is, and i dont care what so and so says or what is says on thier website; anyone who clams they have specimens or pictures in any book, website, price list, is Bull****ing, and if these are on thier website, book or pricelist, then what else is miss named?

So if at present, (we Andy Richard and myself, are working on it, amonst others) no one can say what A. Avicularia is then no one can say what A. metallica is for the simple reason that A. metallica might be A. avicularia, or might be a species in its own right, or synonomised with one of the other Avicualria species, no one can say at present. But keep an eye on the BTS journal.....

If no one knows what exactly A. avicularia is or what it looks like then all of the other Avicularia species with the exception of A. minatrix, A. versicolour, A. purpurea, A. laeta and A. hirschi, are questionable, as they have never been compared against the type which is A. avicularia.
Therfore A. geroldi, A. braushauseni etc are all questioanble species as they have only ever been compared against each other never against the Generic type.

As Colin says, there are things going on in the back ground, the Avicularia article in the next BTS Journal being one of them. I myself am currently working on some papers to remove some of the species which are obviously not species of Avicularia. All this takes time, many hours in basements on museums examining type specimens, hours on the computer writing up, then compiling the illustrations, then re writing before you can present your work for peer revision, then the long wait untill your work is finally published.

To do the job properly may take 9 months - 1 year just to remove a species from one genus and place it in another.

To sum up, people selling A. avicularia or A. metallica dont know what they have or are selling, but a spider with a species name sells better than a "sp" so make up your own minds, especially after reading the next journal.

OH and as for these Photo IDs all i can say is Dont these people EVER LEARN *sigh*

Hope this helps

Ray

[Colin D Wilson]

Well that thread on arachnoboards is a bit embarassing, I am not a great taxonomist, in fact I am still serving my apprenticeship under Richard Gallon and Andy Smith. And i am certainly no expert an "ex is a has been and a spert is a drip under preasure", i am just experianced thats all. But it is very honouring to be held in such hi regard...thank you.

Credit where credit is due

Colin

[Elaine Ross]

Great explanation Ray. I look forward to the journal.

Elaine

[Jay Howdle]

Hmmmm, this is an excellent thread, I have a mature female Avic which was brought back from SA for me as a christmas presant, (my 2nd spid) She was very thin although a couple of months later grew to huge size & produced an egg sac, she unfortunatly destroyed it. I wanted to mate her again & took hold of Mary Walters ''Herbie'' an Avicularia Avicularia but was promptly told ''you cant mate them Jay, yours is a metalica''.
So if mine came as a WC & is id'd as Metalica what does this mean? I can put some pics up but a Ray says its gonna be a useless task. All I can think of is that my lil Spooky was a natural hybrid or was not from where I was origionally told.
Its very interesting. I would like to know though is, if I did put my girl with Herbie again would this be classed as hybridising?
I am strongly against the idea of cross-breeding so wouldn't want to mistakenly do it out of ignorance.
J x

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Jay,

Simply, i wouldnt try to breed with her, shame about the eggsac, that could have been future males. unless you can get a male from the exact same location?

As to the ID: who compared thier specimen with the type of A. metallica and how did they bring them back to life again?

Never mind about comparing the type of A. metallica with the type of A. avicularia I bet they mave not done that actually i cannot think of anyone who has!

Ray

[WayneYasinski]

thanks for all the insight...it does seem to shed some light on the subject and trust me, its needed....with everyone claiming to be experts... its refreshing to get info from people wanting to help the hobby, for the sake of it and not the monetary interest of it.....thankyou all

[Stephanie Sedinova]

Thank you Wayne for posting this question here and thank you every one for all the replies and clarifications. I was so sure that my female was an A. metallica I tossed the idea of breeding her around in my head but now I’m definitely not going to

here is her pic again.

I can put some pics up but a Ray says its gonna be a useless task.

I would very much like to see a picture of your female, please?

[Stuart Collins]

it has a typical old Chinese monk face with giant trailing mustache style pattern on its abdomen. thats so cool, i take it it's violent as it is sooo colorful .

[Jay Howdle]

Hiya Stephanie, i'll be pleased to put up a pic of my girl, but mine is more green & shimmery on her carapace.
I'll put pics up later this morning.

Oh & Stuart, 'Violent' you say? I couldn't wish for a more laid back & actually loverble spider, Spooky is the 1 spid I do hold & she snuggles down into my shirt coller & would sit there all day if she could lol.
J x

[Ray Gabriel]

HEEY Seniorita,

Whoopps wrong thread,

Jay you commin to Newark? can you bring the Avic thing? wouldnt mind getting a pic of her being a "w/c" one.

Ray