what constitutes overfeeding?

[James Box]

Hi James,

Hmm this is a hard one, i am told (and i am not sure if i am at liberty to say which species) that some species actually benefit from the spiderlings being over fed/ well fed.

if you think about it, female spiders will (NormallY0 hatch thier eggsacs at a time when nature has supplied an abundance of food for the spiderlings IE, eggsacs will normally be timed to hatch at the start of a rainy season not in the middle of a dry season, as there will be more small food in the rainy season. But i would also say that some spiderlings maybe the slower growing species will not do to well on an abundance of food.

or do you want it to hide away in its burrow for months doing nothing?

What do they do in the wild?, cool season dry season???

personally, i don't care how "entertaining" my T's are. i only want them content and healthy.

Well said,

Keeping tarantulas is a hobby, it's not conservation. A hobby is there to entertain us. right?

So as long as the spiders "entertain" you it dosent matter that you dont house them properly, over feed them, stress them out etc as long as you are "entertained"?

Its a good job that the majority of people here see thier spiders as living creatures and not "toys", if people want "entertainment" get an X box or a game boy and stay away from living creatures which in captivity depend on us for thier care and survival.

Ray

thanks for the vindication and information, Ray!
i suppose there's a difference between power-feeding for rapid growth and giving a healthy portion to growing youngsters. hopefully i'm on the right side of that, and not feeding too little, either.

with all due respect, Craig, we DO play a vital role in conservation. breeding tarantulas (or any animal) is quite obviously good for conservation, and it's something i support by purchasing captive-bred T's and will actively take part in once my own T's are mature.

i'll not deny that they're "cool" and "entertaining" in their own right, but that isn't the point. we must do all we can for the species of the world, even the "boring" animals.

[Peter Lacey]

If we've established what over-feeding is and what the impact might be I have another question (not trying to put an end to the over-feeding argument). I dare say some of the worries of over-feeding come from the worries of under-feeding. I've read that Ts can go weeks, months and even years without food and it seems some choose to fast for no apparent reason (or perhaps a reason we haven't discovered yet).
So, what constitutes under-feeding, at what point would the T be in danger of starving? And what are the durations of fasting that people have experienced? Can the T absorb minerals from its surroundings without eating? And how much could the T absorb from water alone?
Species and age of T would help.

[Nicola Dolby]

Regarding 'entertaining', if you keep a dog or a cat you want it to be happy and healthy and to have a 'good home'. It should be no different for tarantulas.

[Craig Bellamy]

Perhaps I have put it badly, I think you're all missing my point.

How can anyone deny that they don't keep tarantulas for entertainment? Including myself? Would you keep 100 tarantulas if they were all exactly the same colour and species? I doubt it.

As I suspected there would be quite a few defending this, but you only have to question why? We have to separate the dealers from the customers to get honest answers, which I am sure we'll never get.

Now, I am in two worlds, I would prefer to see tarantulas in the wild, but being a typical male, I want one in my room with me, so I am guilty as anyone, but I cannot pass it off as conservation, that's total rubbish! You cannot call it conservation unless you have justified in full the reason for taking it from the wild(through captive breeding). Anyway, I won't babble on about that as this is my opinion and off the topic.

I know that it would be better for tarantulas to be left in the wild so I go half way, I make sure the spiders home is like that of in the wild.

How many owners keep hundreds of spiders in racks in basic tatty shoebox tanks? You think a tarantula is happy in a 12x12 in tank it's whole life? I beg to differ no matter how full it is. We could probably survive too in a 12x12ft room with adequate food, but that doesn't make us happy. Yes I agree we need more stimuli, however a the tarantula only now has food. Most people do not give them a varied healthy diet either again like that of the wild.

So my answer is, keep less tarantulas, build bigger more interesting tanks and burrows and plenty of life, feed it less, let it struggle just as it does in the wild, but I didn't say underfeed it. You will get a tarantula that does a lot more exercise and when it eats it feels rewarded just as all animals do.

People may disagree here, but I know my techiques are not to harm the tarantula, but rather to give simulate as closely as possible it's natural environment, and hope I get to see it every now and again.

heres a picture of my tank for your interest. note the burrow entrance is a foot long and the chamber is 1ft squared. Now we have a happy spider that comes out when it feels like it and not when the owner wants her to.

[Ray Gabriel]

If we've established what over-feeding is and what the impact might be I have another question (not trying to put an end to the over-feeding argument). I dare say some of the worries of over-feeding come from the worries of under-feeding. I've read that Ts can go weeks, months and even years without food and it seems some choose to fast for no apparent reason (or perhaps a reason we haven't discovered yet).
So, what constitutes under-feeding, at what point would the T be in danger of starving? And what are the durations of fasting that people have experienced? Can the T absorb minerals from its surroundings without eating? And how much could the T absorb from water alone?
Species and age of T would help.

Have a read of Beargs book avaliable through the website, Bearg done some experiments with this.

[Peter Lacey]

LOL, I'm currently reading Stanley Schultz's book "The Tarantula Keeper's Guide", I'll have a look in there or the 2 other books I've ordered "Tarantulas and Other Arachnids" by Samuel D. Marshall and "Tarantula Care" by Robert Breene.

[Peter Lacey]

I can see you've gone to quite some effort Craig, nice.
I've read Cacti are not good to have in the tank as they can pierce the T causing a slow death. Might be wise to remove that.
I furnished my Klugi with leaves and dried grass etc. She trashed the lot!

[Ray Gabriel]

Perhaps I have put it badly, I think you're all missing my point.

How can anyone deny that they don't keep tarantulas for entertainment? Including myself? Would you keep 100 tarantulas if they were all exactly the same colour and species? I doubt it.
As I suspected there would be quite a few defending this, but you only have to question why? We have to separate the dealers from the customers to get honest answers, which I am sure we'll never get.

I am not a dealer, I have also had shelves of spiders all the same and for me animals are not entertainment they are my charges and i am responsible for their well being.

Now, I am in two worlds, I would prefer to see tarantulas in the wild, but being a typical male, I want one in my room with me, so I am guilty as anyone, but I cannot pass it off as conservation, that's total rubbish! You cannot call it conservation unless you have justified in full the reason for taking it from the wild(through captive breeding). Anyway, I won't babble on about that as this is my opinion and off the topic.

Very sexist, so when the logging camps have went through an area and the wildlife collected and sold into the pet trade, by keeping them alive and breeding them in captivity is not conserving them?

How many owners keep hundreds of spiders in racks in basic tatty shoebox tanks? You think a tarantula is happy in a 12x12 in tank it's whole life?

most seem to be quite happy in a 5cm by 50cm burrow in the wild so what makes you think a larger container would make them feel any more secure?

So how do you judge the human emotion happy in a spider? does it sing to itself? if the reproduce in the habitat they are being kept in now that is a sign they are being housed correctly

I beg to differ no matter how full it is. We could probably survive too in a 12x12ft room with adequate food, but that doesn't make us happy. Yes I agree we need more stimuli, however a the tarantula only now has food. Most people do not give them a varied healthy diet either again like that of the wild.

I know an acrophobe who is very happy at home, you try to put human emotions into an animal that works basically on reaction! How do you know that spiders need a varied diet? i have bred P. regalis for years on maggots and black crickets with no probs,

So my answer is, keep less tarantulas, build bigger more interesting tanks and burrows and plenty of life, feed it less, let it struggle just as it does in the wild, but I didn't say underfeed it. You will get a tarantula that does a lot more exercise and when it eats it feels rewarded just as all animals do.

I have yet to see spiders going around an exhibition commenting on the type of housing they prefer, they are not interesting for the spiders only the humans. You can put a spider in a cereal container it will make a burrow, put it in a jungle it will make a burrow, ground dwelling spiders live in burrows, no matter what the size of the container is, an arboreal spider released into a room will make a tube web in which to live, they wont web up the entire room, another way is to give them a container which "is" the burrow. What species of predator do you include in your tanks to help give them the struggle for life? do you allow them to get mites, diseases etc? or are they in large confined comparatively sterile enclosures? which leads back to making them interesting and a show piece for yourself not the spider.

Animals eat as a necessity to live not as a treat

People may disagree here, but I know my techniques are not to harm the tarantula, but rather to give simulate as closely as possible it's natural environment, and hope I get to see it every now and again.

My ways are also not to harm the spider, and i can see my spiders at night with a torch.

heres a picture of my tank for your interest. note the burrow entrance is a foot long and the chamber is 1ft squared. Now we have a happy spider that comes out when it feels like it and not when the owner wants her to.

I cannot see your pictures, my spiders in their little containers full of mud also come out when they feel like it, not when i call them, i suppose that shows my spiders are not happy, they don't come when i call them LOL

The original topic was overfeeding not housing lets try to get back onto topic?





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[Ray Gabriel]

LOL, I'm currently reading Stanley Schultz's book "The Tarantula Keeper's Guide", I'll have a look in there or the 2 other books I've ordered "Tarantulas and Other Arachnids" by Samuel D. Marshall and "Tarantula Care" by Robert Breene.

Do you have Ron Baxters book? that is the best one in English by far,

Ray

[Ray Gabriel]

I can see the pics now,

Your T. blondi wont be to "happy" without a dry season that your plants wont like, and if you want to breed her she will have to be seasoned, wet and dry.

Nice tank for Dendrobatids though, but i would remove the cactus as suggested earlier

Ray

[Peter Lacey]

No, don't have Ron Baxter's book. What's it called? Might be worth a purchase once I've read these 3.

[Ray Gabriel]

No, don't have Ron Baxter's book. What's it called? Might be worth a purchase once I've read these 3.

Keeping and breeding tarantulas, it is advertised at the back of the BTS journal.

Ray

[Phil Rea]

How can anyone deny that they don't keep tarantulas for entertainment? Including myself? Would you keep 100 tarantulas if they were all exactly the same colour and species? I doubt it.

I keep them because they interest me. I don't expect them to be entertaining.

As I suspected there would be quite a few defending this, but you only have to question why? We have to separate the dealers from the customers to get honest answers, which I am sure we'll never get.

I am not a dealer either. I would happily keep 100 of certain species if I could ever get hold of them. Not the obvious ones like P. metallica or M. balfouri either, but ones that I have a particular interest in.

I know that it would be better for tarantulas to be left in the wild so I go half way, I make sure the spiders home is like that of in the wild.

Please don't take this the wrong way Craig, but no you don't. You are making the tanks nice for you and others to look at. The spider isn't even aware of its surroundings in the same way we are.

Can you convincingly simulate Namibian soil in captivity? Rainforest burrows? Xeric shrublands? I sure as heck can't. What I can do though is make sure that my spiders have as close to what they need (conditions and food wise) so that they thrive. I do it my way, which works for me, and you do it your way which presumably works for you.

Even the prey items we give spiders such as crickets and mealworms aren't encountered in the wild by the majority of them. However they are opportunistic, and will happily eat what they're given.

How many owners keep hundreds of spiders in racks in basic tatty shoebox tanks? You think a tarantula is happy in a 12x12 in tank it's whole life? I beg to differ no matter how full it is.

Spiders don't have emotions. You can't humanise them.

People may disagree here, but I know my techiques are not to harm the tarantula, but rather to give simulate as closely as possible it's natural environment, and hope I get to see it every now and again.

Many of my spiders I hardly ever get to see, and I'm happy about that. It means that they are content with their conditions.

[James Box]

i feel that same way, Ray. like they are charges not toys, and not less so because we chose to take on the responsibility.

i guess my only point was that i feel T's are interesting just because they live and breathe and make other T's... i love them just to be alive, that in itself is good enough for me: that their needs are satisfied. the amount of time they spend moving about isn't the main issue, though i like to know they're alive!

as for a varied diet, i think that's probably good because there'd be different nutrients to varying degrees, and it would be similar to the wild.
that being said, if crickets are gut loaded, then there's a good chance a healthy blend of vitamins will make it into the T, in which case all is well.

[Craig Bellamy]

Well, my point was that I feel the same way as all 3 or 4 of your but what I was trying to say was that "a lot" of people that buy spiders just want to fatten them up as quickly as possible on the largest possible prey, regardless of how healthy they or not they are. Agree?

We all have different views and they are views, not facts, which is why I am expressing mine as an opinion.

btw Ray, my cactus is furry and soft, and yes I do emulate the dry season, day night temperatures, fluctuating humiding etc etc, though have no intention of breading. Thanks for the advice