Avicularia community?

[Peter Lacey]

I've been reading up on community tanks for the last couple of months but I've always been a little apprehensive considering Pokies are the most likely choice.
However, on giving the Avicularia genus a good read it seems these are possible too. According to S D Marshall "Pinktoes have been reported to be able to live in colony cages, like the ornamental tarantulas... although they are not as sociable as the ornamental tarantulas".

I also noted Colin's interest from another thread in July 07. Did you ever try this and if so which species?

... Going to attempt an Avicularia community soon not sure on which species yet (once again though if what i get is what it says on the tin, another genus muddle)

I was hoping to house 3 x A. versicolor slings (hopefully to arrive from HAMM in March) up to maturity in a 45x45x45cm Exo-terra. Provide plenty of hiding places and adapt the enclosure to suit the humidity/ventilation requirements for Avics.

Some ideas I had:
I may remove some of the wire mesh to replace with acrylic and install a small computer fan to help the ventilation. If I can create a slide door for this it may prove useful for dropping food items through and the fan will deter webbing.
I may add tubing attached to a bottle lid for supplying water to the bowl. I could easily attach a bottle with water to provide quick refils to the bowl without disturbing the enclosure.
I may put the Exo on a spinboard with the furniture (cork etc) as a centre piece by visually splitting the enclosure in 3. I can then revolve the Exo to view the individuals.

As I have the time I certainly have room to experiment and find out if these (and other ideas) are plausible. So, what do others think? What experiences have others had with Avic communities as well as other T communities. Infact any Avic info/pix are appreciated, especially if its specifically versicolor.

[Colin D Wilson]

Hi mate

Never got round to it this time, although created comunities in the late 80's and 90's mainly with what was then A.avicularia (sp guyana for now) they were tolerant of each other, built web tubes at respectable distances from one another and didn't really interact. the encounters were a flurry of leg slapping and retreat by one or the other.

All the versicolor communes i've had dealings with have been quite unsuccessful due to cannibalism at juvenile and up, even with copious amounts of food (based on own observations and attempts, there's always exceptions though).

not sure about the fan regarding vibrations and annoyance to the occupants, if you install it so it pulls air out of the viv (blowing in would cause more disturbance) then unless it's in a heated room it will be dragging cooler air through the viv and controlling temp wil be a problem. i think normal vents will be more than sufficient.

Like the idea with the tube and bottle for water you could overflow the bowl to offer humidity quite easilly with this idea.

as long as there's plenty of hiding places i can't see why the revolving tank wouldn't work fine, i know people with spiders in a hexagonal tank basically set up the same and they get on fine.

Colin

[Peter Lacey]

yeah I also believe the fan might be too noisy or vibrate too much, just an idea that I thought might help the ventilation issue. If you believe the Exo ventilation would suffice that will certainly make it easier. However, I'm sure a little breeze in the trees in nature would'nt cause such probs.

The tubes seem a perfect solution and easily hidden behind backing, cork or plant.

Did you come to any conclusions as to how to avoid the cannibalism? Were they from the same egg sac? Did they web near each other? was the enclosure big enough?

Interestingly its been suggested elsewhere that a smaller enclosure with few hiding places will most likely work better as territories are not created.

[Louise~Nichols]

Peter...communities are something which fascinate me too, so it's lovely reading your thoughts on possible set-ups for the Avics...but, I don't think Versi will live together in any way shape or form! I have 4 friends who have all tried to keep these beautiful critters in groups...they all ended up with empty tanks, despite the space provided.
I know from my own Versi that they can be very variable and sometimes very short tempered...I have a few, and there are 2 who attack and bite anything (forceps, hands etc) that goes in their tank on a very regular basis!!
However...my sp, Peru Purple get on very well, they arrived in a tub together, I separated 3 of them into tall pots, and left the others as a group. The 3 that I separated off haven't grown as well as my grouped specimens, and were slower to settle into a feeding routine.
The *solo spids* are still only 15mm legspan, whilst the grouped spids have grown incredibly and are now around 25-30mm. Obviously I watch for any signs of trouble, and I know that ultimately I will probably separate them for my own peace of mind...but so far it has been interesting to watch. (Pics attached of size difference, I've used sling pot lids to help give perspective)

Anyways...good luck with those plans, maybe you'll get to be the breakthrough in proving that Versicolor can live together in harmony (and then write an epic paper on it all...lol), and I'd be among the first to congratulate you!

[Colin D Wilson]

yeah I also believe the fan might be too noisy or vibrate too much, just an idea that I thought might help the ventilation issue. If you believe the Exo ventilation would suffice that will certainly make it easier. However, I'm sure a little breeze in the trees in nature would'nt cause such probs.

Dont forget the electro magnetic pulses that the fan will put out, and the constant pitched whine that accompany most fans.

The tubes seem a perfect solution and easily hidden behind backing, cork or plant.

You could hot glue the tube to the glass for extra security as well, quite like this idea, it's a nice advance on from the drip system for some reptiles...nice one!!

Did you come to any conclusions as to how to avoid the cannibalism? Were they from the same egg sac? Did they web near each other? was the enclosure big enough?

own experiences here of course.
*cannibalism happens between versicolor, it just seems to be their nature.
*they were from the same egg sac and grew at the same rate to juvi stage
*they didn't web much, in my estimation, due to the close proximity and possible higher stress levels of communal living.
*enclosure was quite sufficient in all cases, although higher / longer success rate was obtained by smaller cages / high food content (same as pokies) A avicularia seem to do better with more space.

[Peter Lacey]

Tee hee, thanks Louise, not sure I'm such a crusader but the time difference in receiving enclosure/tank should give me time to rearrange and experiment.

Did you notice my edit - "Interestingly its been suggested elsewhere that a smaller enclosure with few hiding places will most likely work better as territories are not created."

I'd certainly provide info if I found it works, just looking for tips into how it might be achieved, from as many sources as possible. I've found some great articles of species living together, this is my fav experiment:
P. murinus

http://venomlist.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19075

It made me laugh when I read somewhere that cleaning the tank caused the most probs. One T would run away into another Ts territory and it became a knock on effect. Early days for the above link but definitely worth watching.

[Peter Lacey]

electro magnetic pulses! eeek never thought of that. I wonder if that would be an issue to a T.
I was of course thinking small silent fans - the fan idea isn't dead yet as the flow could easily be diffused - will test the humidity before installing.

I'd certainly silicone the tube, merely to keep it in place and therefore reduce human intervention.

Its very interesting to note the growth rate improves in groups and therefore is in contrast to what we might expect.

Here's another beautiful example of how it can work:

http://www.arachnofreaks.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3325

and of course there's the chicken spider thread within the BTS forum

[Ray Gabriel]

Avicularia tend to be more social than communual making thier own individual webs as opposed to sharing.

A. versicolour are cannibalistic as are most other Avicularia.

The ones i have had most succsess with are A. minatrix from the same eggsac. These do very well if given a fair amount of room, i had 3 s/a in a 10x10x16inch (LxBxH) front opening Custom Aquaria enclosure, remember that live plants with this species might not be a good idea as they need to have a dry season for breeding.

Ray

[Joe Bowden]

First off I just have to say that that post on the Holothele incei is inspiring... can you imagine how long you could spend watching the interactions in that tank!?

Anyway... back on topic. I too am not sure about the long term use of a fan for extra ventilation. From my admittedly limited experience with my versicolor 'she' (like most tarantulas) is very sensitive to airflow although ground/tank vibrations dont seem to bother her so much. Even if diffused via silk plants in the vivarium it will still be a constant flow and wont replicate the natural breeze of their natural environment. Exo terra tanks have great ventilation anyway.

For the Exo terra I keep my formosa in I ended up using fine perspex with ventilation holes and placed this between the mesh screen top and the plastic ledge that it sits on. This was partly for humidity and keeping the warm air in but mostly because I was worried about finding the T stuck (paranoia!!)

As for your 'water drip' idea for topping up the bowl I will definately adopt this when my versi is big enough for her viv, its a nightmare trying to pippette water into my C.cyaneopubescens bowl because of her web hammocks!!

Attached are some pics of my little versicolor (if they post!)... The first is for scale when I got her and the the others just for the colour after 2 + 3 moults respectively (well you cant have a thread about these beauties without a few pics!!)

[Peter Lacey]

@Joe, thanks for the pix, that's exactly what I want to see. Those lovely cyan blues and the chevron Opithosoma.

I'm keen on the use of acrylic with holes but I'm guessing that means your Exo lid doesn't snap into place now? I was thinking of actually removing the steel mesh by taking the frame apart and replacing with acrylic for the back half of the enclosure.

The pippette - hey! I was about to buy one of them when before thinking of using the pipes.

@Ray, appreciate your reply. Did a bit of reading on the T store concerning Genus Avicularia although its quite a technical read. Its obvious you've followed these for quite some time. Could you please give us some more details. If we accept they are cannibalistic is this something that happen early or as they reach maturity? Did you find the same occurrence in large and small enclosures. Could it be possible to influence this behaviour, perhaps reducing the chance for the T's to meet (lets use a water barrier for arguments sake). If we're faced with cannibalistic behaviour is there a point where this becomes inevitable ie fine as slings and juveniles?

FYI I wasn't intending putting live plants in the enclosure. From what I've read this causes too many issues so maybe something to explore in the future.

[James Box]

i love that thread about H incei living communally. apparently there's a possibility the same could be achieved with Heterothele villosellas as well as Yamia sp "Koh Samui", according to other posts on the same thread.
this really makes me want to buy some massive tanks and try it out.

[Peter Lacey]

thought this thread was worth bumping to keep people up to date with my thoughts.
The built in fan idea is firmly put to bed, I believe the ventilation the Exo offers will be quite adequate, however I have a little USB fan that I may test to see the reaction (its attached to the computer keyboard on a seperate table to that of the spiders).

The versicolors are now going to be replaced by more appropriate species, the A. minatrix (preferable), A. purpurea, A. Guyana or A. Amazonica seem better suited. I really wanted versicolors but I feel its inevitable that canabalism will come knocking on my/their doors. I thought I might have cured the problem by placing the versicolors in a large exo I have purchased (45x45x60) with seperate branches for each specimen so they were physically seperated from each other. This set-up would have used a water feature (no substrate) to keep them seperated and therefore encourage the food items to climb. I subsequently learned Avics are quite capable of jumping, bah humbug! They're also quite capable of swimming! oh fiddlesticks! (sorry but my imagination sees swimming trunks and pike dives).

As the advice I've received seems to point towards smaller enclosures it seems the 30x30x45 Exo might be more appropriate as this will help towards closer integration although as slings it seems this will be way too large. Louise's images perfectly display the benefits of communal set-ups and after a "little chat" I'm encouraged to try the same.

to be continued...

[James Box]

sounds cool, Peter! do keep us updated

i'm going to try, on a very heavily monitored basis, an H incei set up, as soon as i'm able to get my hands on a large number of slings.
also, going to experiment with H gigas, and perhaps Yamias (due to one of the people on that H incei thread relaying positive experiences with this species in a communal set up. waiting to hear if they had only slings or adults as well).

[Colin D Wilson]

going to experiment with H gigas

Won't be long matey, she's getting a nice size now

[Louise~Nichols]

Tee hee Peter...thread bumping...ah well, you'll be busy tomorrow morning anyways, and maybe you'll be just a little bit distracted from colonies temporarily...

I'm amazed with the spids that will live in colonies, and their daily routines around/with each other...it's such a shame that the Versi's aren't amongst them as they look such cute cuddly types!