Heat lamp question

[Tom Forman]

Hello evrybody,

I have started using an infra red heat lamp that I used to use for my snakes on my spiders.

I found out that infra red lamps don't heat up the ambient air (which is what I want really) but heat up objects instead...

Supposedly better technology but I have got my doubts if you ask me.

Basically I just can't get the temp set up right at all.

If I put the thermometer infront of the bulb it reads 50 degrees C, however if I put the thermometer inside a tupperware container it reads 28 degrees C ( the temp I am going for).

I have got my spiders next to the tupperware container, all in containers also but the thermometer is reading 50 degrees just outside the containers.....

I have done this to save on electricity but I do not think infra red is the best to use. The lamp just seems to be heating the outside of the containers to 50 degrees so it stays at 28 inside of it?!?

How is that supposed to be superior technology?

I am just really worried my spiders will get cooked atm.

Maybe infra red is just not the right thing to use... I have read that some heat mats use the same crappy technology. I really don't see the benefit of making the floor warm but leaving the air cold or is one supposed to use an air warming device and an infra red lamp as a supplement? I was going to get a heat mat but I just want a normal one, not an infra red heat mat. Does that exist? Where would I get one from. How do I know its infra red or not? It is very unclear browsing some of the heat mats on Ebay.

Well any suggestions or comments are more than welcome.

[Peter Lacey]

Heating, a subject that delivers many opinions.
If your house is warm enough for yourself then its likely to be warm enough for the Ts. However, many people decide they wish to use a heatmat or heat source for a variety of reasons. If your Ts are from hot dry regions eg. Mexico, Chili, Peru, Brazil its quite likely it demands little in the way of additional heat or humidity (check on the specific species).

What many collectors tend to do is heat an enclosure that houses a number of seperate enclosures (tubs in tanks). If you wish to control this heat use a heatstat with a heatmat and place your temperature gauge in an empty tub. You can purchase a dimming heatstat to help gradate from day time heat to night. You can also create a gradient temperature by placing the mat at one end of the tank.

As for using an infra red heatlamp that sends shivers down my spine (forgive the pun) as I remember many complications with these with human use. If the heat is uncontrollable in the manner you suggest I'd certainly avoid using it. I doubt much has been researched on the effects of infra red light on tarantula but it can certainly be a danger to human eyes and skin.

I haven't come across IR heatmats but you can certainly buy regular heatmats at reasonably low prices.

[Colin D Wilson]

As for using an infra red heatlamp that sends shivers down my spine (forgive the pun) as I remember many complications with these with human use. If the heat is uncontrollable in the manner you suggest I'd certainly avoid using it. I doubt much has been researched on the effects of infra red light on tarantula but it can certainly be a danger to human eyes and skin.

I'll just quote Peter on this, as it's basically my opinion too.

Heat the room if possible and if you really have to, use heatmats to heat from the side or above, spiders like to burrow to get cooler.

[Rich.Harrington]

I'll just quote Peter on this, as it's basically my opinion too.

Heat the room if possible and if you really have to, use heatmats to heat from the side or above, spiders like to burrow to get cooler.

Something about that I'd like to ask quick, I normally heat my T's from the back of a viv as i then cover the mat with decorative backing, this means the ground stays relativly cool. I have however placed the heatmat in the base for one tank, as it was for an aboreal species and there is plenty of bark tubes etc to allow the T a natural upward living space.

Would this be ok or not? so far the spider seems to have no signs of discomfort.

[Colin D Wilson]

Yeah in my opinion that's acceptable for an arboreal.

The heatmat under the tank scenario is a bit of a pet hate of mine (actually i'm not keen on heatmats at all but that's just me)
Many, many people use them with no problems.

[Tom Forman]

thx for the replies guys.

I will scrap the lamp.

On a side note though, my waxworms seem to love the IR lamp. I noticed the first time I put them under it I had a couple of moths within the week. Same has happened again.

My spiders are I think a little less fast. Normally they react a bit more skittish when I open the containers. I'm wondering if that is good or not. I'm not really thinking its bad atm. Happy spider = calm spider no?

Well who can tell for sure.

[Tom Forman]

the reason I got confused is because of this guy http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Habistat-Heat-...QQcmdZViewItem

According to his desciption his heat mats produce infra red heat.

I am starting to suspect he got his facts wrong. I can't see his heat mats beeing any difernt to the others beeing sold on ebay.

Edit:
have researched the matter more and it turns out you can get two types of heat mats:

carbon impregnated glass cloth type heaters (mostly made by habistat)

and infra-red heat mats (mostly made by cobra)

Edit: nope, still confused. Have seen habistat heat mats beeing descibed as infra red emitters now too.

[Peter Lacey]

I've not picked up on the infra red heatmat perhaps you're looking at different ones to me. Take a look here: http://www.thespidershop.co.uk/insec...products_id=73
or on here: http://www.virginiacheeseman.co.uk/

[Tom Forman]

thx peter,

I have bought myself a habistat heat mat. I think it is the right one but fingers crossed.

I got even more confused when I had a look at 888reptiles as they sell desert heat mats, rainforrest heat mats and IR heat mats...

http://www.888reptiles.co.uk/product...ry=Heat%20Mats

How is a beginner like me supposed to understand all that technical mumbo jumbo.

And I don't understand why my local pet shop told me not to get a heatmat (they are bad according to him) but sold me an IR lamp which by the looks of things is the bad one...
I've stopped going to him, he's already ripped me off and I've suspected before he did not know what he was talking about.

[Clinton Hogben]

And I don't understand why my local pet shop told me not to get a heatmat (they are bad according to him)

they can be bad if used incorrectly for example if you place a full size heatmat under the viv the spider cant get cool by burrowing it gets hotter the deeper it digs

As long as you place it on one side or the end of the tank or at the top the spider can still get away from the heat if it wants

I have mine built into the lid of the viv so the heat goes downwards and if it gets to hot the spider can burrow down into the cool

Clint

[Peter Lacey]

I'm afraid what works in a pet shop isn't regarded as the best habitat for the animal. Too often the shop is too diverse and the information on the species a tad sketchy. I much prefer specialised shops and I have 2 exotic pet shops close to me (actually I have 3 but I've never visited the 3rd). Its often the case the inhabitants are housed to show off rather than provide the most suitable enclosure and the temperature within the shop might be warm enough not to need surplus heat.

My heatmat is on the side of the tank, warming up the substrate from the rear. However my little G. rosea (which has successfully moulted over the last couple of days) has no heat source - the loft room she's in provides adequate heat. The new arrivals - C. fasciatum and A. geniculata will probably do without additional heat, I'll take some readings at various times of the day/night to check.

I've read a couple of posts recently suggesting a heatmat from the top of the tank. Heat rises? yes. So, how much heat will the T receive with this set-up?

[Stanley A. Schultz]

the reason I got confused is because of this guy http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Habistat-Heat-...QQcmdZViewItem

According to his desciption his heat mats produce infra red heat.

I am starting to suspect he got his facts wrong. I can't see his heat mats beeing any difernt to the others beeing sold on ebay.

Edit:
have researched the matter more and it turns out you can get two types of heat mats:

carbon impregnated glass cloth type heaters (mostly made by habistat)

and infra-red heat mats (mostly made by cobra)

Edit: nope, still confused. Have seen habistat heat mats beeing descibed as infra red emitters now too.

This is all advertising horse-pucky. Another instance of the use of quasi-technical terms instead of hand waving, smoke, and mirrors (which don't come through this medium very well) in an attempt to separate you from a little more of your hard earned money.

Let's go to the basics: "Infrared" is a type of light. Its wavelength is too long for our eyes to see, but it has about the right wavelength to be able to stimulate the molecules in your skin so when it shines on you, you feel "heat." Hence, "infrared lamp" is pretty much equivalent to "heat lamp."

Infrared light of some sort or another is radiated by anything that's warmer than its surroundings. It's one of the three or four ways that things use to cool off. You radiate infrared light as you sit in front of your computer screen reading this, for instance. So, technically, any sort of mat that is purported to "heat" your tarantulas' or reptiles' cages radiates infrared light. They're all infrared heaters. And, in that respect they're no different than any other sort of heaters, your aunt Hattie's rubber, hot water bottle included!

But wait, there's more! Another way that heat is transfered from a hot source is by conduction. The heat from the heating element or flame on your kitchen range is "conducted" through the metal of the pot on the stove to the water it contains. No rocket science here either. And, all these heat mats work that way at least.

If I had to pass judgment, I'd say that their "infrared" heat pads really relied more on simple conduction rather than infrared radiation to warm a cage. And, while they can't be hauled into court for deceptive advertising, the mention of "infrared" in their advertising is more a ploy at trying to appear sophisticated for PR purposes than a real description of their product.

And, as far as I can tell, all those heat mats act exactly the same as your classic, medicinal heating pad: they're nothing more than an electrical resister(s) embedded in some sort of material that won't explode in flames if it gets a little warm, or short out and electrocute you if it gets a little damp. Their only major differences are what form the resistor(s) take that makes brand "A" better or worse than brand "B," and what is the nature of the material that they're embedded or wrapped in that makes brand "A" better or worse than brand "B."

But, because they're all steeped in so much advertising flatulence, we can't properly assess those issues. Obviously, they're trying to hide something. Is it that their heat mats aren't really that special after all? Or, are they merely trying to hide their ignorance because they're only parroting what someone else said who was equally uninformed? I think we may never know.

Even so, I stand by my assertion in paragraph one.

Now, it's your turn. What makes you think that you need to warm or heat your tarantulas in the first place?

(Man! I just love being a surly old curmudgeon! )

[Taki Tsonis]

Even so, I stand by my assertion in paragraph one.

Now, it's your turn. What makes you think that you need to warm or heat your tarantulas in the first place?

(Man! I just love being a surly old curmudgeon! )

Can I answer that one from my perspective Stan . I live in JHB South Africa and our average summer temp. is about 20-22 deg.C, our humidity however is a ludicrously low 30%. Those 2 factors and the fact that we live at an altitude of 1700m above sea level, make it uncondusive to healthy T growth rates etc. Humidifying my rooms to 70-80% is very difficult and for that reason a heating pad under my moist substrate is the easiest way for me to keep my T's above 25 deg. C and 80% humidity .
But my conditions are unusual, you people that live in nice humid enviroments are just LUCKY!

[Stanley A. Schultz]

Can I answer that one from my perspective Stan . I live in JHB South Africa and our average summer temp. is about 20-22 deg.C, our humidity however is a ludicrously low 30%. Those 2 factors and the fact that we live at an altitude of 1700m above sea level, make it uncondusive to healthy T growth rates etc. Humidifying my rooms to 70-80% is very difficult and for that reason a heating pad under my moist substrate is the easiest way for me to keep my T's above 25 deg. C and 80% humidity .
But my conditions are unusual, you people that live in nice humid enviroments are just LUCKY!

Strange, but that sounds a lot like the climate where we used to live, Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Except that about once a month during winter we'd get an arctic storm over the pole from Siberia, and the temperature would dip to -35 or -40 C (-37 to -40 F) for a week or so, especially in late January and early February. And those low temperatures meant that the relative humidity in our homes got so low that merely reaching out to touch a door knob could be life threatening because of the static electricity.

Even then, with only one or two exceptions, all we ever did to manipulate humidity was to cover all our open cages with plastic food wrap. The spider room was kept at normal house temperature by means of a dual range thermostat: 75° F (24° C) daytime and 66° F (19°C) nighttime. You can see a typical cage setup by clicking the thumbnail.



The white stripe down the length of the cage cover is a strip of Magic Disappearing Tape that doesn't disappear in the camera flash. It's holding the ends of the plastic food wrap (which is wrapped around the full length of the cover) together. If you use this technique you need to overlap the wrap a little.

And the exceptions? We routinely kept T. blondi in "swamp cages," again with plastic food wrap covers. Hysterocrates species as well.

For the record, H. lividum, the cobalt blue is supposed to require a high humidity. Not so. They did quite nicely as long as they were allowed to burrow, even though the substrate was kept dry. However, we did dump a 1/4 to 1/3 cup of tap water down their burrows about every 10 days to 2 weeks. I admit that that would have raised their local humidity a little for a few days, but nothing like the 80% some care sheets recommend.

You try to keep your tarantulas to 70% to 80% Rh? That's downright sticky!

As far as growth rates vs humidity is concerned, that's not our experience. For better than 15 years we made a "front room" business out of breeding tarantulas and importing babies from dealers in the USA. Over that time we might have had thousands of baby tarantulas pass through our hands. (Estimate 2 importations of 250 babies per year plus eggsacs of 300 babies each 3 times per year for 10 or 15 years. It's a crude estimate, but it suggests some idea of the numbers.)

With the exception of B. smithi and B. emilia, virtually all of them doubled their size every six months to a year depending on the species. However, they were all kept in closed containers with a few ventilation holes until they reached nearly full grown or were sold. Click the next thumbnail for an example.



While that would have significantly raised their humidity levels, it doesn't invalidate my point:

You needn't go though heroic efforts to maintain an elevated humidity or abnormally high, controlled temperatures to obtain respectable growth rates or sizes.

I'm not calling you a liar or saying you don't know what you're talking about. I'm sure your system works. In fact, it may work quite well. My point is that it's largely unnecessary in most circumstances.

In that vein, I'd be tempted to challenge you to set up a few babies and partly grown tarantulas that are siblings to your other ones as I've described, so you could compare them with those that you care for using your methods. It would be an interesting experiment. You may be pleasantly surprised. So might I!

Enjoy your sauna tarantulas!

[Tom Forman]

Hey stanley, thx for that.
I was suspecting something along those lines, I'm glad you agree.

About heating the spiders, I was going to say: Are you kidding me? but it really does not sound like it which is a bit sad...

I try to provide my pets with the best evironment I can for them. Just recently I lost a whole tank of fish because the heater concked out. You go ask the dead fish why I was providing them with heat...

I was only keeping them at 26 degrees, I am keeping my tropical spiders at 28. Maybe they can survive at 20 degrees.
Battery chickens survive too but I do not think they are very happy.
I want my spiders to be happy.

I keep my greenbottle blues at 22 degrees but even for them I need heat.

I could go on and on, I still can't believe you asked me that question.

I even heat some of my tropical plants lol.

Fair enough, I haven't got that much experience with spiders yet but I am not going to treat them any worse than any other animal I have kept just because they can "tolerate" it.
Maybe I will change my view on the temp with spiders someday, we will see. I know I did on the humidity: like you say, as long as they have got a humid burrow the enclosure can be bone dry.