Thoughts and opinions on Spider venom

[Chris Sainsbury]

Moderators Note
Thought i'd create a new thread regarding the topic, just to keep another thread clear of digression.

My original post was..........


"A few posts have mentioned "potent venom" "potent bite" etc etc,
There are a number of "Types" that trawl through forums like this looking for little snippits of information that they can misquote in their next revision of the "lets try and restrict the tarantula hobby in any way we can" news articles.
So...to just confirm ....some tarantula venom can be considered more "effective" than most others. The effects of bites from the tarantulas that are mentioned here (that are kept in the hobby) are not medically significant, and to date no death has been directly linked to the effects of such a bite."

Hope you dont mind Chris i've moved your post to this new thread.

Colin




Hi Colin

Can you define what you mean by medically significant?

All the best
Chris

[Colin D Wilson]

Thoughts and opinions on Spider venom

Hi Mate,

Medically significant meaning, a fatality (or near fatality after medical intervention) caused by the effects of the toxin itself and not a reaction caused as a byproduct of, or associated with, the toxin entering the body.

regards

Colin

[Nicola Dolby]

Hi Colin and Chris,
First can I just say (and I'm sure Chris would agree) thank you for what you've done with this thread because its a serious subject and after my recent battles with my landlord (thanks once again to the Hale clan and Mark P. for the help)) its an area which I'm a little touchy about.
So on to my 2 pence worth. First, spider venom is, from all I've seen, species specific. By this I mean the enzymes react differently within the bodies of different species. An example of this would be how a Selenotypus tarantula bite is usually no worse than a bee sting to you or me but can be lethal to a dog. On the other hand a Hadronyche funnel web bite can be lethal to you or me but relatively harmless to a dog. Different venom effects different species in different ways.
Point 2. Is some tarantula venom more negatively reactive to humans in terms of symptoms than other tarantula venom? Yes. The reason for this is as far as I'm aware unknown and although it is my PERSONAL OPINION that the more "venemous" tarantulas have evolved in regions where their more frequent predators have been primates, there is as far as I'm aware not official research to provide evidence of a reason.
Point 3. There are lots of "folk tales" about tarantulas, often made up by people in small communities to demonise the spiders for their own benefit. One thinks of the "baby killer" H. schmidti. Utter crap.
Point 4. On the subject of "aggressive" spiders, yes some species can be quicker to defend themselves than others. That doesn't mean that when you open the tank they will leap out, pull your arm off and beat you with it!
Point5 Tarantulas are far more scared of us than we are of them. Most species are strictly nocturnal so are nervous in daylight. So if you poke them with a pencil the chances are that sooner or later you will get bitten.
Sorry about the rant and most of what I've said you all know. Its just it doesn't help the reputation of tarantulas or ourselves when people read these threads and hear about "can this or that tarantula harm me". There are plenty of bite reports here for genuine informative reasons. Please read those if you are concerned aboutbuying a particular species, or e-mail/post one of the committee who will be more than willing to advise you.
Many thanks.

[Peter Lacey]

Is that really the proper definition of medically significant? To my mind that suggests anything less than life threatening is medically insignificant. I've seen plenty of reports of people who have suffered spider bites, including tarantula, they've suffered far more than a bee sting, sometimes lasting weeks and on occasion requiring medical treatment. I find it rather worrying that sometimes the venom is suggested not to be life threatening and therefore there's no problem. To my mind there's a lot inbetween and any resulting infection caused by the result of a bite should be included in the consequences of a tarantula bite.
I get more worried by the desire to belittle the effects of a T bite than I do about the dangers of demonising them.

The truth IMO is that few hospitals take precautions, there are few anti-venoms and there's very little medical advice on the venom that exists in many species which have only come into the market within the last 20 years. That doesnt constitute the lack of danger, I very much doubt my hospital has an anti-venom for many potentially dangerous species and the fact many of these anti-venoms do not have a long shelf life perhaps explains much. As Stan would suggest, more needs to be done.

[Nicola Dolby]

First Peter can I say I appreciate where you are coming from and my reference to "bee stings" was made concerning Selenotypus sp. and is accurate. Secondly I have always interpreted "medically significant" as meaning "with the possibility of requiring hospital treatment in a minor way". If tarantulas were in any way dangerous DEFRA would have already acted, I assure you. Further on the subject of potency of tarantula venom, please read point 2 of my statement again. Like I've said there are bite reports and experienced committee members here and no one is forcing anyone to own a Poecilotheria or a Stromatopelma. I have kept both, Poecilotheria were the first genus I bought and I currently care for 18 of them.At the end of the day they are not dangerous and beautiful to keep. That's that

[Tom Forman]

I've always wondered what would happen if lets say a person passed out in the jungle and a tarantula came along and decided to have a nibble on his leg.

Now if you were bitten by a tarantula, you'd fling it away and you will only have been bitten for a few seconds but what if the T pumps a bit of venom into you for an hour or so while this person is passed out.

In an insect it liquifies the insides so the T can suck the resulting liquid out.

Could this person end up with a big chunk missing out of his leg cause the spider started to digest it?


Well I've never heard of it happening so doubt it would happen but I've thought about it before

(talk about an imaginitive mind lol)

[Andrew Ferguson]

Is that really the proper definition of medically significant? To my mind that suggests anything less than life threatening is medically insignificant.

Surely anything requiring any medical attention, whether minor or major is medically significant.

Different people would have different reactions to bites I would have thought. Just because a tarantula bite didn't seriously harm Victim A, the self same bite could result in a serious allergic reaction with Victim B. We often hear that the bite is no worse than a wasp or bee sting. I've been stung by a bee and it hurt a bit. But ask someone who has a severe allergy to bee and wasp stings what a sting feels like; I'd bet my mortgage they say it hurts like hell.

Nicola, to say pokies (or any genus) are not dangerous is a bit of a sweeping statement. All tarantulas (in fact nearly all living creatures) can be dangerous, so long as we do not become complacent and above all respect them (that goes for pet cats, rodents, dogs, reptiles and even horses). But I will agree they are beautiful

[Colin D Wilson]

Is that really the proper definition of medically significant? To my mind that suggests anything less than life threatening is medically insignificant.

I know Peter, it's a little vague but it's part of the screening process that determins whether or not a venomous animal goes on the DWA listings (it's not "ad verbum" but as close to as serves)

The generalisation of the statement (not mine (or my opinion) i hasten to add) is why animals such as mangrove snakes go on and off the list and hognose snakes are always on the edge of becoming DWA etc etc

Different people will react differently to the same venom, it's part of the nature of things, i myself have had a few misfortunes that don't go "in the norm" with others experience. i.e....

S lanipes bite, reasonabley painful etc etc but different to Angela Hales symptoms
P regalis bite again different to Ray G's
P cavimanus sting, painless sting, after effects of infection were quite bad
Vipera berus (adder) Bite no ill effects other than swelling and a little sickness really, another lad on the field trip was taken to hospital quite ill
Normal everyday wasp, swelling of hand so i couldn't use it and knocked me for six (not what you'd expect as others just have localised itching and a little lump)

It's all to do with your genetic make up and this cannot be taken into account when they decide on a statement or the screening process for DWA so they generalise.

[Nicola Dolby]

You've answered your own point Andrew. Anyone might have an allergic reaction, then again anyone might not. Further all who've allergic reactions to tarantula venom have all come through it without too much trouble as far as I can gather. Further I'm not going to go outside and kill every bee that comes near my flat because one might sting me and I might have an allergic reaction. I might slip and fall when I get in the bath tonight and break my neck, but I'll take my chances. Good night!

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi

Its just it doesn't help the reputation of tarantulas or ourselves when people read these threads and hear about "can this or that tarantula harm me".

I agree only I think missinformation works both ways. Can this or that tarantula harm you? well I think that this toatlly depends on the species possibly the gender and the person who is bitten.

Is that really the proper definition of medically significant? To my mind that suggests anything less than life threatening is medically insignificant. I've seen plenty of reports of people who have suffered spider bites, including tarantula, they've suffered far more than a bee sting, sometimes lasting weeks and on occasion requiring medical treatment.

This is partly the reason for my question in the first post. Im going to take the rather funny (yes I laughed in his face when he told me and I still have a chuckle when ever it is mentioned) case of the Hysterocrates sp. (a male) that bite Thomas Ezendam. After talking to him and then reading about this bite (there are a few others that also stick in my mind) I think just to shrug tarantulas off as being quite harmless is just as, if not more missinformative than saying their bites are life threating. If any of you know Thomas, then you will also know that he is not a small bloke but this bite really knocked him off his feet. Ok it didn't kill him but could it have done if he was maybe older, frailer, much much younger? Hopefully we will never know!
With this in mind what do we say? No they proberly won't kill you but you could feel like crap for a month or two and wish at times it had killed you?
Could we then apply the same to species of Latrodectus?

Another problem I have is when a species is said as being harmless because another species in that same genus is harmless. To show how I mean look at the Phoneutria genus because not all of these are considerd life threatening.

Secondly I have always interpreted "medically significant" as meaning "with the possibility of requiring hospital treatment in a minor way". If tarantulas were in any way dangerous DEFRA would have already acted, I assure you.

Yep and hospital treatment in a minor way is just what many people including Grahame Wright, Ray Gabriel, Thomas Eenzdam and Averyl Setterfield to name a few got when they got bitten by their tarantulas.

DEFRA with its DWA list is laughable in my honest oppinion. have you seen some of the animals on there? What is funny though is you can buy and own some of the most venomous salt water fish yet, oh no, away with your Latrodectus spawn of evil venomous things! Horses = Good, Camels = bad?????? But as this is about trying to find out the trutrh about tarantula venom I think DEFRA can be left out of it.

I'm not going to go into the ins and out at why someone would get bitten because that really can all be sumed up with the word "stupidity" ie you were doing something stupid and as a result you or someone else got bitten. This also has nothing to do with the thread btw.

So if you survived reading my twoddle I will sum up my thoughts:-

Life threatening.....well I would say no depending on who was bit and by what.
Medical importance.....Well if you have to seek medical aid then I would say yes.
Harmless.....For all species I would say at your own risk

And just for Tom:-

If I passed out on the jungle floor and a tarantula wanted a nibble of my leg, then it would be a bad day for Mr tarantula as I have enough deet on to deture Ray Hale let alone Mr tarantula!

all the best
Chris

Just seen after posting loads more so will reply later maybe. Oh and no probs starting a new thread btw just so you know.

[Andrew Ferguson]

You've answered your own point Andrew.

I'm good at that according to my wife

I'm glad to hear that all those who have been bitten and suffered a serious reaction have come through ok. I was just speaking from my perceived opinion and not on fact. I guess I need to join the BTS and get the Journal

[Colin D Wilson]

I'm not going to go into the ins and out at why someone would get bitten because that really can all be sumed up with the word "stupidity" ie you were doing something stupid and as a result you or someone else got bitten. This also has nothing to do with the thread btw.

Just sticking with this a little Chris...
I'd like to split the word stupidity into two subcategories "ignorance" and "complacancy"

Both applicable in one way or another to all of the bites and sting i mention above.
Ignorance that a spider and scorpion can move so fast
Complacency of recovering a spider with a cricket tub and a wasp with a piece of card.
ignorance of the countryside around me when returning a female snake into the wild and NOT checking the clumps of grass near for a small male

[Chris Sainsbury]

lol split hairs if you wish Colin but it it still boils down to stupidity. Don't worry though as we are all stupid at some time or other only some of us get away with it.....but only just!
all the best
Chris

[Colin D Wilson]

Nah not spitting hairs mate....i was agreeing with you....i should have put the subcategories as "stupid ignorance" and "stupid complacency".
Guilty as charged as well i'm afraid.

Just seen after posting loads more so will reply later maybe.

Look forward to it, this has turned out better than i thought it would, quite enjoying it

Oh and no probs starting a new thread btw just so you know.

Thanks mate.