anyone seen this?

[Peter Lacey]

Mark has already answered some of my questions so I'll not persue that, but...

Its obvious from the original findings that this species were found not only on the mainland but also on a small island. Have both areas been deforested? I thought only the area used for the Government buildings?

Its not always fair to blame the government, even in the UK companies will level land despite court orders protecting that land because the penalties for doing so are so low in the scheme of things. Its also fair to say that the priorities of reserving areas is outweighed by the demand from the populus. I totally agree with trying to save areas (been a member of Greenpeace for so long now) but I'm often reminded of how much of our own green land has suffered exactly the same fate.

Unfortunately Chris, I can't read German, but A. Smith reported 1 or 2 specimens per tree and therefore would these "hundreds of specimens" quoted by K, M & K be merely slings? I can't image a single tree would support such numbers.

I've asked this question before (at least on the T-store), and therefore I think its appropriate to ask again, not just for this instance but other instances. Have there been requests to the BTS from a country to help re-introduce tarantula to their natural habitat? Would a country allow that introduction from a foreign land or would it have to be from a local captive breeding program?

I mentioned Greenpeace earlier because they have an active roll in highlighting issues which provide a negative perception of Government/Company practices and by doing so improve their own PR (as A. Smith has suggested). I may have worded that wrong but I'm sure you get my drift. Is this a route the BTS might adopt in this case or is that a little too political?

[Chris Sainsbury]

nicely put Mr Pennell.
all the best
Chris

[Chris Sainsbury]

Unfortunately Chris, I can't read German, but A. Smith reported 1 or 2 specimens per tree and therefore would these "hundreds of specimens" quoted by K, M & K be merely slings? I can't image a single tree would support such numbers.

Hi
Not single trees but plantations with hundreds of specimens of this species.

Plantation:-..........Fundamentally, a plantation is usually a large farm or estate, especially in a tropical or semitropical country, on which cotton, tobacco, coffee, sugar cane, or trees and the like are cultivated, usually by resident laborers.


Cheers
Chris

[James Box]

Chris, in short yes. if it was a "policy" on any level, then definitely!
my point was you made a rather large sweeping statement with no explanation that affected the members of the BTS (which includes me, though pending renewal!), but you've cleared that up now, so not sure you need to sound flippant about it

and yes Mark, nicely put.

have to say though Chris...if that's true about the plantations, that's surely encouraging news.

[Phil Rea]

I notice MarkP's removed a part of an ad for this species on the BTS classifieds. Good thing too

I think I can be forgiven for this line of thought. Besides I remember very well many of the views and oppinions that were given in conversation when the crap it the fan so to speak when they were first advertised for sale

Who the heck posted that on T-store? Oh hang on a minute.........

There were a few vocal comments, can't argue with you there Chris

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi

Chris, in short yes. if it was a "policy" on any level, then definitely!

Never said anything about any "policy".

my point was you made a rather large sweeping statement with no explanation that affected the members of the BTS

WTF large sweeping statement? affected the members of the BTS? Being a little over dramatic don't you think and if you had read the other thread that was linked in post 3 of this thread you may or possibly may not have seen the explaination or?
So I was only going by the overall view and how I read it on that thread I also linked to, and how it all came over to me at the time in the various conversations, posts etc.

so not sure you need to sound flippant about it

Not quite sure what you mean as I don't find any of this a very serious matter so you will have to forgive my casual way of looking at this.

which includes me, though pending renewal

you and me both.

have to say though Chris...if that's true about the plantations, that's surely encouraging news.

yep for the spider quite possibly but for how long?

Have you noticed that most of these endangerd species or at least the most famous endangerd species are in the poorer countrys of the world? So how can you expect any person or goverment of a land that struggles to feed/ house and find work for themselfs or the population to give a dam about the wildlife?
Help the people of a land with alternative fuel souces and they may not cut down the trees. Help with jobs and they may not need to hunt the tiger, etc etc etc Then real changes may begin to happen instead of the odd piece of land here and there, (although this is at least a start). Of course the problems lie alot deeper than this but I honestly think that helping the poverty would benefit a species of animal more than sticking a fence up with a sign saying no hunting, logging and fishing!

Way I see it is, until mankind learns to live with the planet instead of just on the planet, we are going to lose alot more. Im just glad I don't have kids to see it in the next 50 years. depressing eh lol.
I will stop taking crap now and leave you in peace.
cheers
Chris

[wesley flower]

interesting thread.

life of Brian, what a great film lol, and very apt i should say to bring it up here.

what i dont under stand is...........mark started to say about P. smith. but still that is only 2 species that are threatened, what people are discussing, what about other species? tbh there are more that just 2 threatened spp. in the world. one being Dolomedes plantarius (native araneomorph) for example, and i dont see any one arguing about the lil brown jobs from the Koh samui island (Yamia sp). it seem like the typical animal activist senario, save the 'pritty ones' if you catch my drift.

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi

What am I suppose to belive here?
This report that states there are less than 500 in the wild (stil I think a good number when compared to other speices of animal or even some other spiders most proberly), or should I belive the book :-
Ornament vogelspinnen, die gattung Poecilotheria by Krehenwinkel, Maerklin & Kroes, that states that because of the numerious planting's of Tamarind trees in the area, it is not rare to see plantations with hundreds of specimens of this species!

Chris

Well do you believe the hobby people who have been there for a couple of days to grab a few specimens, or the scientist who has surveyed the area and visited it quite a few times, since said authors have been there?

Ray

[Chris Sainsbury]

good point Ray, but I can't comment on the length of time, reasons of visit or how much of the area was looked at by the hobby people. Without maybe good distribution data off then and now to compare side by side (map form works best for me as I am more practical) so it is hard for me to imagine the change over a small period of time.
But sure I see where you are coming from. Its a little like Gandelf bridge before and after the flood there...you can't quite imagine the difference now until you have seen it.

Something I thought was interesting though (even if a little off topic) was this statement in the report:-

Mortality rate amongst the spiderlings is high due to cannibalism and natural predation.

which was a bit of a suprise (to me at least but that could be put down to thickyness) when I remember Mr. Smiths lecture when I recall him saying that this was one of the most communal species of Pokie he had come across in the wild. Maybe with the lack of trees there also came a lack off food.
all the best
Chris

[Nick L]

As I said in my previous post the first link is a summary of the Red List data-sheet. In this instance it does seem rather bad ‘journalism’ as the last, emboldened sentence, is embellished in a way that was probably not the intention in the original document. It would be reasonable for the BTS to ‘complain’ about this – and before anyone says that that is pointless, the IUCN works on a feedback system; try them…

It’s evident that some people have read the full data-sheet (http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/63562) but others appear not to have – EVERYWHERE, the primary threat is stated as habitat loss in one form or another. Collection for the pet trade is mentioned too (as in other data-sheets where it occurs) as are all other known ‘threats’. Sure, with Ts the effect this has is minimal compared to habitat loss but what do you do? “Habitat loss” – a short ‘n sweet phrase; “Collection for pet trade” a much longer and more emotive one! “Threats” are detailed in order of importance, probably without exception this is the major cause of concern for EVERY species listed. “Habitat loss” is a phrase that has been bandied around so much that it has lost its’ impact and significance – not much can be done about that.

what i dont under stand is...........mark started to say about P. smith. but still that is only 2 species that are threatened, what people are discussing, what about other species? tbh there are more that just 2 threatened spp. in the world. one being Dolomedes plantarius (native araneomorph) for example, and i dont see any one arguing about the lil brown jobs from the Koh samui island (Yamia sp). it seem like the typical animal activist senario, save the 'pritty ones' if you catch my drift.

P. smithi is not on the list – not because it doesn’t deserve to be but because no-one has proposed that it should be. The IUCN doesn’t operate as some ‘bod’ sitting down with a list of taxa and going through them one by one ascertaining if they are threatened. It is done by people who have worked-on, or who have knowledge of a particular species and think that it should be recognised as threatened in some way putting a proposal to the IUCN to have it evaluated and subsequently listed if it is considered warranted. There are 15 Ts listed in the Red List – 14 of them from India and all revised in 2008 – ‘someone’ in India is taking a serious and active interest in their Ts! [So, is that good, or bad?!] Yamia sp. ‘Koh Samui’ would not be listed, not because it’s an LBJ but because it has not been described and is not an immediately recognisable and distinct taxon. With the IUCN the accusation levied of ‘save the pretty ones’ is not warranted – laziness and the lack of sufficiently interested parties is.

This is not meant as criticism of the BTS but, if it wants to contribute to T-conservation, why isn’t there a ‘Conservation Officer’ listed on the committee or even a ‘Conservation Sub-committee’? The BTS, amongst its’ members, has sufficient knowledge to put proposals to the IUCN for listing or even de-listing of T species. There are almost certainly members who could become involved with the IUCN (as a member of the SSC – Species Survival Commission – or as advisors). As has been said conservation is very ‘political’ today and to get anywhere (particularly with a society like the BTS – the focus being on Ts, which aren’t British) you do have to ‘play the game’. The BTS could have an influence in ‘recognised’ international conservation but it is not going to come about by waiting to be contacted for help/advice; participation has to be pro-active. For the BTS to get anywhere it needs a focal point either in a person or a committee and it needs to have a ‘constitutional’ statement on its’ views on conservation if it is to get anywhere in this field.

[wesley flower]

As I said in my previous post the first link is a summary of the Red List data-sheet. In this instance it does seem rather bad ‘journalism’ as the last, emboldened sentence, is embellished in a way that was probably not the intention in the original document. It would be reasonable for the BTS to ‘complain’ about this – and before anyone says that that is pointless, the IUCN works on a feedback system; try them…

It’s evident that some people have read the full data-sheet (http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/63562) but others appear not to have – EVERYWHERE, the primary threat is stated as habitat loss in one form or another. Collection for the pet trade is mentioned too (as in other data-sheets where it occurs) as are all other known ‘threats’. Sure, with Ts the effect this has is minimal compared to habitat loss but what do you do? “Habitat loss” – a short ‘n sweet phrase; “Collection for pet trade” a much longer and more emotive one! “Threats” are detailed in order of importance, probably without exception this is the major cause of concern for EVERY species listed. “Habitat loss” is a phrase that has been bandied around so much that it has lost its’ impact and significance – not much can be done about that.




P. smithi is not on the list – not because it doesn’t deserve to be but because no-one has proposed that it should be. The IUCN doesn’t operate as some ‘bod’ sitting down with a list of taxa and going through them one by one ascertaining if they are threatened. It is done by people who have worked-on, or who have knowledge of a particular species and think that it should be recognised as threatened in some way putting a proposal to the IUCN to have it evaluated and subsequently listed if it is considered warranted. There are 15 Ts listed in the Red List – 14 of them from India and all revised in 2008 – ‘someone’ in India is taking a serious and active interest in their Ts! [So, is that good, or bad?!] Yamia sp. ‘Koh Samui’ would not be listed, not because it’s an LBJ but because it has not been described and is not an immediately recognisable and distinct taxon. With the IUCN the accusation levied of ‘save the pretty ones’ is not warranted – laziness and the lack of sufficiently interested parties is.

This is not meant as criticism of the BTS but, if it wants to contribute to T-conservation, why isn’t there a ‘Conservation Officer’ listed on the committee or even a ‘Conservation Sub-committee’? The BTS, amongst its’ members, has sufficient knowledge to put proposals to the IUCN for listing or even de-listing of T species. There are almost certainly members who could become involved with the IUCN (as a member of the SSC – Species Survival Commission – or as advisors). As has been said conservation is very ‘political’ today and to get anywhere (particularly with a society like the BTS – the focus being on Ts, which aren’t British) you do have to ‘play the game’. The BTS could have an influence in ‘recognised’ international conservation but it is not going to come about by waiting to be contacted for help/advice; participation has to be pro-active. For the BTS to get anywhere it needs a focal point either in a person or a committee and it needs to have a ‘constitutional’ statement on its’ views on conservation if it is to get anywhere in this field.

thanks for that Nick, i was in no way questioning the BTS but was saying how it seems to me that most of the species on the red list are 'pretty ones' and not enough interest is being played for species such as the aforementioned Yamia sp, i used this for example as it is just small brown and boring (as said by some) but also a known species in the hobby.

what can be done for spider conservation? and who/how can it be set up? i have seen in some research papers spiders being used as bio-indicaters so surely if spider populations are deccimated this would have a knock on effct for other species in the ecosystem.


btw nick that male Ceratogyrus (becuanicus) darling that i borrowed from you, looks like he has been successfull. i will pm with updates

[Mark Pennell]

This is not meant as criticism of the BTS but, if it wants to contribute to T-conservation, why isn’t there a ‘Conservation Officer’ listed on the committee or even a ‘Conservation Sub-committee’? The BTS, amongst its’ members, has sufficient knowledge to put proposals to the IUCN for listing or even de-listing of T species. There are almost certainly members who could become involved with the IUCN (as a member of the SSC – Species Survival Commission – or as advisors). As has been said conservation is very ‘political’ today and to get anywhere (particularly with a society like the BTS – the focus being on Ts, which aren’t British) you do have to ‘play the game’. The BTS could have an influence in ‘recognised’ international conservation but it is not going to come about by waiting to be contacted for help/advice; participation has to be pro-active. For the BTS to get anywhere it needs a focal point either in a person or a committee and it needs to have a ‘constitutional’ statement on its’ views on conservation if it is to get anywhere in this field.

Dear Nick

I would just like to point out the BTS is and has been actively working on conservation for over 24 years, all of us on the committee work hard on this subject and we have had many meetings with the aforementioned groups, just because you don't see a conservation officer on the committee list does not mean we do not work hard on conservation, as we all do, that was extremely presumptuous statement.

We do not just sit around waiting to be contacted as you say we are proactive in all respects, we do actually give advice to these groups. I feel you may have a deep misunderstanding of the work we do on all our behalf’s, this is probably our fault as we do not publish a lot of this as we are in a currently low profile mode . I do think you have a fair comment and good point as far as a dedicated officer for conservation and I will be bringing up this subject at the next committee meeting, that was a great Idea!....

We also have a mission statement:

"The aim of the British Tarantula Society is to promote and encourage the responsible husbandry, research, captive breeding, conservation and general knowledge of theraphosids, scorpions and associated fauna"

This featured on the front page of the web site for many years, and due to the new upgrades to the design as it was in a flash banner. I did actually forget to put it back on I have rectified this slight error!

Also listed on the BTS constitution:

"3. To encourage the participation in long-term captive breeding programmes, to both relieve the pressure on indigenous habitats and create a supply of specimens for amateur arachnologists."

We are currently updated the constitution and it will include more specific conservation plans and statements. The BTS Committee - I.E Andrew Smith, Peter Kirk and others have all taken active parts in surveys of Poecilotheria for conservation and inclusion on the CITES list. We do have close contacts with the IUCN and other parties such as ZOO Outreach in India. Since the Sanctuary idea and then subsequent actions of one single person and a rather nasty smear campaign the BTS reputation was extremely damaged. 20 odd years of hard work wiped out over night by one individuals email.

Over the last 5 years we have worked bloody hard on repairing the damaged reputation this caused the society, and only now is the BTS managing to get back its reputation with these groups, its been a long hard road...

However this is water under the bridge now, we have ridden that storm, apologies and agreements made, forgiveness and handshakes all round. We turned the other cheek and moved forward. We harbour no grudges, life is far too short the society is bigger than this, and we move forward.

We also created this to help with research and promote active conservation

http://www.thebts.co.uk/bts_research_grant.htm

It is quiet obvious you have strong veiws on this subject, why not come along to an AGM and put them forward to the committee.

Regards

Mark

[Ray Gabriel]

P. smithi is not on the list – not because it doesn’t deserve to be but because no-one has proposed that it should be. The IUCN doesn’t operate as some ‘bod’ sitting down with a list of taxa and going through them one by one ascertaining if they are threatened. It is done by people who have worked-on, or who have knowledge of a particular species and think that it should be recognised as threatened in some way putting a proposal to the IUCN to have it evaluated and subsequently listed if it is considered warranted. There are 15 Ts listed in the Red List – 14 of them from India and all revised in 2008 – ‘someone’ in India is taking a serious and active interest in their Ts! [So, is that good, or bad?!]

Hi Nick,

good post as always,

I have not seen the list but i think the reason P. smithi is not on the list is because it is Sri Lankan, and the people proposing the protection are from India, so only covering thier own sp.

The "‘someone’ in India is taking a serious and active interest in their Ts" is the Dr who surveyed the P. hunamavillasumica site for the report.

Ray

[Eric Reynolds]

The "‘someone’ in India is taking a serious and active interest in their Ts" is the Dr who surveyed the P. hunamavillasumica site for the report.

Ray

Maybe the result of the grant he got in 2006.
CLICK HERE

Eric

[Richard Gallon]

Thanks for the link Nick, a lot less sensational than the short front-page version (but I still feel the pet trade issue was overstated here).

As a society we should be proud that it was the BTS who drew the world's attention to this spider. For without this publication I doubt this spider would have attracted any conservation interest.

Smith, A. M. 2004. A new species of the arboreal theraphosid, genus Poecilotheria, from Southern India (Araneae, Mygalomorphae, Theraphosidae) with notes on its conservation status. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 19 (2): 48–61.

Hopefully this new listing will help attract more funding to research the spider's ecology. At the very least it should help prevent further population losses. Dare I dream of tree planting schemes to link fragmented populations?

Presumably Tamarind plantations aren't this species' natural habitat. I suppose its original native habitat has long gone. It's just fortunate it was adaptable enough to utilise a made-man habitat opportunity.

Cheers,
Richard