Reply to thread regarding pain.

[Chris Sainsbury]

True. Thanks for the thread. It was an interesting thread. Both sides of the argument all seemed to hinge on an opinion on what pain actually is and how its perceived whether it be nothing more than a signal to the brain to avoid a negative stimulus or something which causes mental stress into the bargain. I don't know which is the case in inverts to be honest. One things for sure is that inverts are physiologically very different from mammals but this doesn't necessarily suggests they don't feel pain as mammals might. We can make educated guesses but unless some crazy scientist can turn himself into an invert then I guess we'll never know for sure. It's certainly a topic worthy of a discussion though.

There are many threads on this around the internet with some very clever people commenting on the subject supriseingly there is no real big mystery on the do spiders feel pain question or so I am informed. Its a basic fact that if the brain lacks the part to enable them to feel it then they don't feel it!

cheers
Chris

[Richard Shah]

Where are you going with the last point made? My point would be if a tarantula feels fear (which they display a lot) then clearly they must also feel pain to have sucumb fear!! I've made posts on this in the past and they were very interesting threads... I would check them out to any one interested via the search function.

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi Richard
Single cell amoeba will react to negative stimili, meaning they may try and get away from exseive heat or cold etc would you then say they are feeling pain or fear of these things?
Basicly if they lack the nervious system and part of the brain that allows them to feel pain then they can not feel pain or fear.
I know its hard to accept but its more or less fact.
cheers
Chris

[Richard Shah]

Hi Richard
Single cell amoeba will react to negative stimili, meaning they may try and get away from exseive heat or cold etc would you then say they are feeling pain or fear of these things?
Basicly if they lack the nervious system and part of the brain that allows them to feel pain then they can not feel pain or fear.
I know its hard to accept but its more or less fact.
cheers
Chris

But they don't lack the nervous system though; they can't. If they react to different surroundings and a different enviroment then clearly they have sensitivity to it and therefore pain.

[Chris Sainsbury]

My bad Richard I phrased that wrong...they lack the part of the nervious system that allows them to feel pain.

If they react to different surroundings and a different enviroment then clearly they have sensitivity to it and therefore pain.

yep like Single cell amoeba.

[Richard Shah]

My bad Richard I phrased that wrong...they lack the part of the nervious system that allows them to feel pain.



yep like Single cell amoeba.

And how do you come to the conclusion that "that part of their brain is missing"??

[Chris Sainsbury]

And how do you come to the conclusion that "that part of their brain is missing"??

By reading and still often trying to understand the much more clever people who make scientific factual posts on this subject. I tend to believe the people who have studied invert anatomy rather than the people who can't or won't accept it.

[Richard Shah]

By reading and still often trying to understand the much more clever people who make scientific factual posts on this subject. I tend to believe the people who have studied invert anatomy rather than the people who can't or won't accept it.

Nah sorry, experts believed the world was a flat piece of land and so I will believe from what I have observed. How is it actually possible to know whether something feels pain if you are not that creature yourself? Give me actual evidence that may actually lead to the conclusion that they don't feel pain; real hard evidence!

[Chris Sainsbury]

Richard, for me to try and explain something that I admit do not fully understand in every detail myself, to someone who seems would be unwilling to even try and understand it, because it doesn't make sence to the eye, would not only be a waste of my time, but more importantly a waste of yours.
again this is one of the best threads I know on this subject:-

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=40470&highlight=pain+thread

so fill your boots and have a nice long read and if you still argue the same points you make now after that lot then you havn't read it carefully enough.
All the best
Chris

[Richard Shah]

Richard, for me to try and explain something that I admit do not fully understand in every detail myself, to someone who seems would be unwilling to even try and understand it, because it doesn't make sence to the eye, would not only be a waste of my time, but more importantly a waste of yours.
again this is one of the best threads I know on this subject:-

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=40470&highlight=pain+thread

so fill your boots and have a nice long read and if you still argue the same points you make now after that lot then you havn't read it carefully enough.
All the best
Chris

Okay will do when I have time and I'll get back to you.

[Andrew Ferguson]

I've not read the thread Chris posted yet, but Richard you need to be aware that a nervous system and the ability to feel pain are two different things. The brain is a very complex thing and differs from inverts, to fish and mammals. Creatures such as crocodilians despite their great size have very small brains and survive almost solely on basic instincts. Eat, Sleep, Breed.
Without the knowledge possessed by scientists, I would say a tarantulas brains works in a similar way. The nervous system sends and receives the basic information required to survive.
One of the main problems of being is a human is the tendendancy to anthropomorphosise members of the animal kingdom.
It would be stubborn to say that tarantulas do not feel pain and it would be naive to say they do - without the research and knowledge to back up the argument.
Sure scientists once thought the world was flat and the universe revolved around the earth. But that was very basic and rudimentary science and cannot be used as an argument on the debate of modern and more technical science we have the pleasure of today.

[Christopher Malkavian]

It was thought before that cats and dogs are unable to feel pain by various scientists. (Going back 200 years or so) A study was released a few years ago suggesting fish felt pain and it was received with backlash from various communitys. The problem with studying pain in animals is that often they process pain differently than other organisms such as humans. So more often than not it turns out we were not able to "detect" pain but the animal could be feeling it.

We know that tarantulas feel stress which is actually a very complex process for any animal to have so it wouldn't be much of a step to think there may be a possibility for spiders to feel pain. Either way im on the fence as there is evidence on both sides that can support a wide range of theories.

[Craig Mackay]

The problem with studying pain in animals is that often they process pain differently than other organisms such as humans. So more often than not it turns out we were not able to "detect" pain but the animal could be feeling it.

Thats definately true and because of this it's difficult to come up with a good all encompassing definition of pain. When humans are in pain there's the whole emotional side of things to take into account. Whatever goes on in your body that makes you want to yell or cry, get angry etc when pain is inflicted. This seems to go hand in hand with pain in higher organisms. Obviously, this doesn't appear to happen in inverts. For pain to be felt does there need to be an emotional reaction processed to recognise the pain? I dunno. It's an interesting topic and one that I don't know enough of the science yet to really make any valid comments. It intrigues me though.

[Martin Huber]

We know that tarantulas feel stress

Distress, Eustress, or both? Where do we know this from respectively are there any study results published obout this?

just curious!
Martin