Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976

[Lisa Baines]

right need a little help here.

I thought the latest amendment to this act was the 2007 amendment (of which there are 2)

Has there been another amendment to this act that I am unaware of??? just been searching on line on official sites and all I can find is the 2007 one.

I ask because it has come to my attention that a popular arachnid selling site is selling Rhopalurus crassicauda (scorps) stating that they are non DWA, so you can imagin that I am a little unnerved that they are selling them as non DWA when all sourses state that ALL buthids are DWA listed

can anyone confirm if the 2007 amendment is the latest or am I going a bit dumb and cannot find an updated act!

[Phil Rea]

According to DEFRA (THE DANGEROUS WILD ANIMALS ACT 1976 (MODIFICATION) (NO.2) ORDER 2007), it's all Buthidae spp.

[Lisa Baines]

thats what I thought, thank you.

I seriously cannot believe this site is so mis-informed. as a seller it is their responsibility to ensure they keep up to date with these things.
sort of enraged me a little... grrrr.

makes you wonder what else they are selling as non DWA, that actually is.

[Stuart Common]

the only thing I can suggest is that if the wholesale company that they buy from sell for example only to the trade and have verified that they have a pet shop licence the wholesale people would not need to check that they have a DWA licence as one is not needed because the pet shop one covers it, however it should still have been clearly stated what it was when they bought it, and I'm sure that the website owners arent as silly to believe that because a reputable wholesaler didnt ask for a DWA licence when buying them that one wasnt needed..

ohhh what a load of waffle, just woken up, think I need to go back to bed...

[Lisa Baines]

yeah i can appreciate a mistake like that, but they actually state... and I quote....

'The Club Tailed Scorpion is a small species reaching an adult size of 5 to 7cm including tail. Caution should be taken, a few other species within the Rhopalurus family are listed as DWA, this Club Tailed Scorpion is not listed as a DWA species.'

NOT listed!!!!! what planet are they on?

[James Box]

hopefully the same planet as us soon...it'd be lovely if DEFRA got their heads out of their backsides and de-licensed most Buthidae!!!
only a handful are dangerous for crying out loud! (and plus i want some!)
but kidding aside, that's very irresponsible/uninformed.

i remember seeing some Uroplectes carinatusfor sale once, looked on DEFRA's site, nope not DWA..."what?" i exclaimed!
checked again, and yep DWA! bizarre. not sure how that happened, it seemed to change overnight.

of course, it emerged these were B jacksoni, not U carinotus, which was odd too.

no idea about Rhopalurus though, it's not one i'm familiar with.

[Lisa Baines]

I'm not totally up to scratch with these either but i think some pack a punch more than others.
And totally agree with the state of the DWA license with regards to most buthids. I think there is only something like 25 that could cause serious harm!

anyway anyone wanting to know who the website is by all means PM me. I am boycotting buying stuff from them personally. been tempted a few times with some of their stock but it's the principle of the matter.

I cant abide this sort of irresponsibility... whats next for them to sell... LQ's to 13 year olds!!!!

[James Box]

actually, i reckon society would benefit if more 13 year old idiot teenage yobbo thuggy kids got sold LQ's and told to put their hand in!

[Lisa Baines]

pmsl you crack me up sometimes!

[Nicola Dolby]

I agree with James totally. There appears to be far less emphasis on responsibility and far more on imposing sensible behaviour here. If you buy a venemous scorp or spider you take the necessary safety precautions. If not you get what you deserve if it bites/stings you. If it kills someone else and you haven't taken precautions, you go down for murder. Simple. Some people will only show responsibility when they have to, while the rest of us are held up by red tape justified by a few morons.
I know little about scorpions but when it comes to the DEFRA list I find it difficult to see a valid reason in some of their spider choices. For example lets look at Loxorceles. The venom is necrotic and as far as I am aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no specific antivenom. However the symptoms are quite easily treatable. However in initial stages the symptoms can be mistaken for something else and if left the envenomation can leave a scar. Ok. Lets think about this. If someone in the UK (not a country with an indiginous population of Loxosceles) gets bitten by a Loxosceles (which they're keeping as a pet) and shows all the initial signs of envenomation (including fang marks) isn't it a safe bet that they need treatment for a Loxosceles bite? Also having got that immediate treatment would the bite victim not be fine? Conversley H.infensa is not on the list despite having venom which is lethal to humans. Apparently you can't get them. Until someone figures out how to ship from Australia and sees a niche market that is. Sometimes prevention is as good as a cure, and we all would know where we stand.
Myself either there should be more emphasis on what is really harmful (Sicarius, Phoneutria, Hadronyche/Atrax) or we should scrap the whole thing and leave people to make their own insurance/antivenom arrangements, knowing the price if they don't and someone gets hurt.

[Lisa Baines]

oh no doubt that the law is a bit backward in places.

anyway back to the original subject I emailed the shop to let them know their mistake.... and they have totally ignored me. they are still advertising them as non DWA.

You really cant help some people for want of trying can you.
Well at least I can sit back and say I tried. It's their trading license at stake not mine.
And to be perfectly honest, if they cant be bothered to keep up to date on legal matters regarding their stock, it doesn't really boast good for them as a trader now does it.

[Stuart Common]

it doesn't really boast good for them as a trader now does it.

no and it doesnt hold them in a very good legal status I imagine either, lets say something happens to someone who buys one, and the company they bought it from did not advise it was DWA and did no checks that the buyer has a DWA licence, I'd say they would be in a bit of bother

[Lisa Baines]

well lets say they get reported, and personally I hope they do.
Anyone who has bought any of these scorpions over the net automatically has an electronic paper trail to themselves.
So if this shop is investigated, anyone who bought them over the net can and would be traced, and there is a distinct possibility that the buyers would be liable for prosecution. Although they might just get a slap on the wrist for being mis-directed by the shop.

lol our matthew keeps telling em to calm down about it all and may be he's right, it's not my problem. I just feel sorry for anyone becoming lured into buying one of these scorpions from them.
I guess I cant imagine how and why they have made such a potentially dangerous oversight. (although from what I can gather these aren't the most toxic scorps in the word)

[Rich.Harrington]

Sounds like a perfect candidate for a shop closure, without trying to devils advocate i personally think you should report the sellers in question, try emailing them again and then phoning them. If you have done all you can to inform them of what might just be a simle error, and they still continue then i'd feel partly resonsible should news break someone has got tagged by a dangerous scorpian one day.

Not to mention that if a business if selling animals that freely and easily to folk then it sounds as if they have more concern with profit than either customer or animal welfare.

[James Box]

Nicola, you're bang on the money!
though that doesn't stop me wanting Atrax robustum, Phoneutria nigriventer and Sicarrius sp!!! they are all fantastic spiders, not because of the danger but just because they are beautiful and fascinating.
ie, i'd not be one of the morons that the law is supposed to guard against!
however, at the present, on the list only Sicarrius is not listed as needing a license...
and there are less dangerous but similar alternatives to Atrax and Phoneutria out there too.

as for this shop, i suppose the important thing is that what they're selling is NOT dangerous. if they were selling LQ's or A australis, it would be of far more immediate concern.
it's irresponsible, and they really should be checking their facts...and responding politely to those who are trying to help...but at least these aren't dangerous scorps, as Buthids go.