can anyone I.D this spider?

[wayne balcombe]

hi, me again

i recently purchased a spider from my local exotic pet shop in the hope i could discover its identity......................... i'm not usually in the habbit of purchasing blindly but as the shop keeper and myself decided it was not the Aphonopelma Seemani it was advertised to him as and he couldn't sell it without proper classification i decided to take it upon myself to figure out the mystery.

the spider is a south american theraphosid, golden brown, almost tan in natural light with beige to subtley pink hairs on the dorsum of the abdomen. in artificial white light it is a darker brown. there are no really prominant markings on the patella's as would be expected of A. Seemani.

the spider is as far as i can tell is a juvenile being only about 3.5 inches in legspan and should be displaying visual characteristics (colour/ markings) of the species it is supposed to belong to, it is extreemly agressive unlike A. Seemani and its first point of defense is to strike without warning.

i have tried to upload some pictures on here but am having problems with that as i think the images are too large but i will keep trying.

i've tried allsorts to figure out wot this is to no avail so i'm turning to the experience and knowledge of the BTS.

regards

wayne/

[Adam S]

Try this website to upload your photos:

http://www.imageshack.us

It's quick and easy.

[James Box]

obviously hard to ID from a pic, especially from the ever-growing seemanni lookalike group, let alone without a pic...
but here's just a guess off the top of my head...the spidershop has been selling a spider they are calling Aphonopelma sp "Guatemalan Blue", which doesn't gain its blue-ish seemanni-like colouration (including stripes apparently) til adulthood, and goes through it's younger years with a beige/golden/brownish colour.

also, some seemanni lookalike spiders are just brown anyway...possibly from being kept dryly for a while or maybe too much light.

just a couple bits to ponder.

sadly with this species as for many, colouration isn't the best way to tell species.

the lack of bold knee striping however may be significant! there are some on here working on these spiders and may be able to help a bit, especially when you have a pic up.

[wayne balcombe]

thanks for the link adam, that was pretty simple.

this is the link to the profile where i've uploaded the pictures i'd be happy to know what you all think. http://profile.imageshack.us/user/ebmoclab/

thanks for your thoughts james i have pondered and looked a little deeper, you're the second person thats suggested the Aphonopelma sp. guatamala variant so thats given me something to think about, if i'm honest aphonopelma is not a species i'm that familiar with as i've never kept a member though i am a little more familiar with the more common seemani and chalcodes sub sp as they are relitively widely distributed through the hobby.

more than the inability to identify this spider the thing that surprised me the most was its agressive nature, never has a 3.5 inch juvenile made me jump out of my skin until now, it was just so unexpected. this spider attacks the glass of its terrainium whenever i walk past when its out and about.

i look forward to any other thoughts you may have on this subject.

thanks again guys.

wayne.

[wayne balcombe]

have got 1 pic of it here as an attachment for you to take a gander at.

wayne

[matthew spooner]

i would say defo not a.seemani but i would put it as an aphonopelma of some description.

[James Box]

it's one of the lookalikes, i think...the striping isn't so bold as i was told "proper" (whatever that is) seemanni has... looks like it possesses orangey spinnerets which are a clue but not proof of ID...

well basically i wouldn't breed it in the near future (unless you get a sac mate), wait til some data comes in from the study that's going on i guess...
nice spider though!

at least it's Aphonopelma best NW terrestrial genus. FACT.

[Matthew Baines]

at least it's Aphonopelma best NW terrestrial genus. FACT.

Lies all Lies!

[wayne balcombe]

thanks james, i'm looking forward to seeing the published article once the study's have turned up some new data.

its still a juve so i guess we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out wen mature may give some other clues.

thanks for your help.

wayne

[Gaston Arce]

looks as my juvenile A. seemani

[wayne balcombe]

hi guys, i've passed on the information i've recieved from all of you to the dealer i got the spider from.

he's been offered a load more from the sack my one came from but still has no idea what to label as for sale so i thought i'd turn to you all again for advice?

i've been thinking of ways to accurately identify this spider and the only thing i can come up with is to send off the exuvium when she molts to someone who can confirm her identity. the problem therein lies with the fact that i dont know such a person and wouldn't know how to find one on my own. is there any way i could learn to classify species and sub species on my own or is there anyone out there who has experience with this sort of thing who's expertese i could borrow?

i would apreciate any response from any of you on this matter.

wayne.

[craig mcinnes]

The spider has a diagonal line on the metatarsus which would indicate Aphonopelma sp. Guatemala rather than seemanni. There is a nice article in the ATS magazine by Eddy Hijmensen about these.

[stuart longhorn]

Hi Wayne (and everyone),

You got good advice so far, well done everyone!
(and James is speaking from experience, he has seen a few of these)

From the pictures im 99% confident it is Aphonopelma sp Guatemala, and actually so confident on that Id that im willing to do some kodak taxonomy on this one. Now, there might be two closely related species, be-warned, neither being A. seemanni. Yes indeed the best visual guide at the moment is by eddy Hijmensen in the ATS journal... hopefully it wont be long to wait before something on this issue appears in the BTS journal. For now though, best name is Aphonopelma sp 'Guatemala'... even for same ones exported from honduras!

I would NOT want you to use Aphonopelma sp 'blue' or 'Guatemala blue', as there are two similar species in Guatemala that can appear blueish as large adults.

Now, the taxonomy of these things is in already progress, but it is important that you realize that requires gathering data from the field (ie studying the ranges and abundances of forms out in guatemala honduras, costa rica etc), drawing and measuring the actual name-bearing vouchers in museum specimens (in USA, UK, france, germany), and collecting insights and voucher specimens from people in the hobby.... before drawing different forms, measuring them, and nowadays even reading DNA sequences. This all takes a fair bit of time and effort to do !!! Now, that's before doing the actual work of comparing measurement with statistics and DNA with specific software, developing theories of which characters are most informative, then writing the views and trying ot get it published - ideally after review by other experienced taxonomists !!!

For now though with your specimen, it would be useful to take a picture of the spermathecae (if female) on the next moult - but this is often only slightly useful (ie may not be good for distinguishing closely related species), and best from larger specimens... when they are too young it can be pretty useless. Skins of large adults can be useful for comparing leg measurements, but with the warning that skins distort as they dry - more importantly, there is still little data to say WHICH measurements are important to distinguish these species yet.

So.. the last points are to make members aware that i would really appreciate any unwanted voucher specimens of these various central american 'Aphonopelma sp Guatemala / or any hobby 'A seemanni'. Here i mean actual live or dead spiders, not skins. Skins are really not that useful.

Especially, any of these species (or the several 'seemanni variants' that freshly die/are dying, please freeze .. and contact me. Also any old unwanted adult males would be REALLY useful as research specimens, again, i would like any live or frozen on death until i can collect.


many thanks
stuart

[wayne balcombe]

thank you stuart for taking the time to write up that extremely comprehensive post.

i will keep a close eye on the developement of this spider and will try to keep you all informed.

i have an idea its a female specimine but i've only been able to sex it from ventral view so thats not guarenteed accurate as its still a juvanile only 3.5 inch L/S. it apears to be in pre-molt at the moment so hopefully i'll be able to put a photo of the spermathecae if its female and my camera is up to this standard of macro photography.

i look forward to seeing this article in the BTS journal when its completed.

thanks again stuart