T.Apophysis disaster molt.....................

[wayne balcombe]

hi all,

i bought a T apophysis at the AES trade show last weekend and it was in pre-molt, it molted during last night with disasterous effect.

firstly i bought it as a sub adult female and this was its maturing molt as a male, palpal emboli extremely visible.

secondly there was some complication during the molt, the carapace didn't not completely detach from the cephelothorax, it was still attached on the left lateral aspect from the 6 o'clock to the 9 o'clock position and the old skin of the abdomen only split down the right lateral side, how the spider managed to get all its legs out of the exuvium i cant fathom though it was not without concequence, legs II and III on both sides where extreemly deformed curling at the tarsus and metatarsus, the other legs seemed ok visually but did not seem to work very well, when the spider righted itself this morning i was at work and had been on duty all night so i didn't whitness any of the molting process but when my other half checked in on the spiders progress this morning it had freed all its legs but part of the exuvium still seemed to cling to the dorsal surface of the abdomen, under direction from myself my girlfriend gently teased the exuvium from the spiders abdomen using drops of luke warm water and precariously handled tongs, the spider was right way up at this point, the exuvium came away with no effort or effect.

The spider has been left in its tank until i arrived home and i was shocked at what awaited me, this beautiful giant of the arachnid world was ambling around legs curled at the ends wabbling like it was baby giraff, a truley disturbing and saddening sight.

i know when conditions are not correct i.e temp, humidity and space to molt etc there can be complications but i always pay special care and attention when any of my spiders are in pre-molt and i followed this explicitly, the spider was in a warm humid environment with nothing in the way to obstruct its movements there was no external interferance or noise that could have startled it but what should have been a simple molt had such horrible complications.

does anyone out there have any similar experiences with this species, is this a normal occurrence, is there anything i could have done or done differently to have had a better outcome. i've never experienced this with any other spider i've kept, i've had spiders loose legs in molts but never seen anything like this before.

any thoughts anyone can offer would be appreciated.

[Eleanor]

I am sorry to hear of the state of your poor spider. At least he is recovering, though it must be a real disappointment for you especially since you thought he was female. I would suggest trying to get in contact with the seller, if you can.

From your description I doubt there was anything you could have done better once you got him home, but I suspect that being transported about and moved between enclosures so close to a moult may not have done him any good.

I have a sneaking suspicion, and I stress that this is *only a suspicion* and I have no proof, but I do have a suspicion that humidity while moulting is not so important, but what is important is that the spider remains fully hydrated during the period before the moult. I base this on a few observations I've made, that when - very rarely - I've had a spider that has had difficulty moulting, the water bowl of that spider had run dry and not been noticed approaching the moult, and although I made sure the humidity was good in the day or two immediately before and during the moult, problems occurred. Mostly my spiders are kept dry with a water bowl and have no problems moulting. This may be nothing, but worth considering, perhaps.

Also, I've noticed my Theraphosas start make preparations for moulting quite a number of weeks in advance of the moult. I wonder his lack of opportunity do do that may have made a difference.

If it helps, I keep the substrate for my Theraphosas only very slightly moist (never more damp than compost straight out of the sack, sometimes drier) and I don't increase humidity for moulting. In the past I have kept them bone dry and they moulted with no trouble.

[wayne balcombe]

only owning this spider a little over a week i had no idea of the conditions he was kept in before moving into my care but since having him at home i've kept him on moist but not wet coco fibre substrata with a full water dish at all times, he didn't start making his moulting mat untill sunday afternoon and had just flipped onto his back before i left for work at about half 6 sunday evening, when my girlfriend checked on him at about 2 am he was still on his back and had made no apparent progress but when she checked again at about half 6 that morning she found him as i explained above.

The thing that confused me was the fact the carapace had not completely detatched, i thought this was something that happened automatically as the spider flexed to push out of the exuvium, what could have caused this to happen? it seems to me that the carapace not seperating was the cause of the deformities i whitnessed as he would have had to exit the exuvium from an awkward sidways angle thus causing the legs to bend while still soft due to not having enough space to ectract his legs in the normal fashion.

his condition continued to deteriorate last night and he began leaking a yellow fluid from his mouth, this i believe is a sign of distress, he was unable to move around properly or straiten any of his legs, the tarsus and metatarsus of legs IV III and II on both sides had curled almost back on themselves making walking almost impossible so at a last i decided to lift him out of the tank into a sandwitch box and put him in the freezer to end his suffering so to speak, i didn't know what else to do and though i felt horrible for doing it i'm starting to feel it may have been best as i'm certain he would not have survived long and condition would not have improved.

[Eleanor]

Oh dear, I'm sorry to hear that he's gone, but he was deteriorating and I'm sure I'd have done the same thing.

Once in your care I can't think of anything you should have done differently that would have helped him more. I think that the seller shouldn't have sold him in premoult, but then the seller also sold him as female which he clearly wasn't.

As for the carapace still being attached, I did once find a moult that had the carapace still attached on one side, but in that case it hadn't affected the spider in any way, as it had moulted successfully.

[Eduard Johan Hijmensen]

his condition continued to deteriorate last night and he began leaking a yellow fluid from his mouth, this i believe is a sign of distress, he was unable to move around properly or straiten any of his legs, the tarsus and metatarsus of legs IV III and II on both sides had curled almost back on themselves making walking almost impossible so at a last i decided to lift him out of the tank into a sandwitch box and put him in the freezer to end his suffering so to speak, i didn't know what else to do and though i felt horrible for doing it i'm starting to feel it may have been best as i'm certain he would not have survived long and condition would not have improved.

wow that is a long sentence.
the fluid from the mouth could be from an internal bleeding, this would also explain the lack of pressure in the legs and thus the wobbly walk.

mental note: do not buy pre-molt Theraphosa sp.

[Yvonne Woolley]

As I have only been keeping Ts for a couple of years I was almost paranoid about the right humidity when it came to my T, Blondi,s and T. Apophysis I had a 2 foot and 3 foot tank as the T. Apophysis was not huge and my big girl Blondi was 10 inches. I used quite a deep level of substrate and at one end of the tank put a large plastic container the width of the tank and about 10 inches long and as deep as the substate, this I dug in but just a hint above the level of the substate you could barely see it as it was black this I kept wet at all times and I found that sphagnum moss in one corner would grow and yet at the other end of the tank where the hide was, was kept dry I have found this to work well for myself and touching wood seem to have had no trouble with moults. I know it is not very scientific but it works with any thing that needs that bit extra hummidity including my young scorpions. Really sad about your girl come boy, the buying of females that turn out to be males is the bain of my life at the moment and so I know how you feel, after saying that I have just purchased a female T. blondi that is guaranteed from people that I know but even so I will not be convinced untill that moult that tells me for certain. lol, Take care and get in touch with the person you purchased it from maybe they will sort something out for you good luck with that and let us know how you go on.

[wayne balcombe]

hi Eduard,

i agree completely and had i known the spider was in pre-molt i would not have purchased him.

i like yvonne's idea of the sunken container of perminantly damp substrata at one end of the enclosure, i may pilfer that idea, its not something i've come across before.

i've had bad luck when it comes to Theraphosa sp. My first T. blondi juvanile died and hatches out some sort of parasitic grub, the T.blondi i have now is sub-adult and looking like a male (ventral view of abdomen shows what looks like fusulae) and the disater with the Apophisis.

why is it so dificult to find healthy specimines of Theraphosa? i've not seen any spiderling or juvaniles for sale in a while, it would be nice to get hold of 5 or 6 and keep an eye on them, sex them as they grow and finally breed them.

[Eleanor]

You have had bad luck Wayne. I'm sure you'll get the spiders you want eventually, but it really shouldn't have to be this hard!

If it's any consolation, I imagine there'll be some demand for loan of your male blondi when he matures, if he really is a he. I, for one, would be interested! As you so rightly point out, there seems to be a real shortage of them at the moment, big or small.

[wayne balcombe]

hi Eleanor,

i shall bear that in mind when he matures and you will have first dibs if you'r still interested, he has a couple of molts left i would guess unless he's going to be a very small male, he's about 7 inch at the moment so we'll have to wait and see.

on a brighter note i should be picking up 2 juvenile captive bred T.Blondi's that are about 8cm l/s tomorrow and i have 4 Cyriopagopus Shioedtei slings on route from the spider shop that should arrive tomorrow too.

[Mrs Linda Street]

Hi Wayne, sorry to hear of all the bad luck you've had with Theraphosas, and especially when they turn out to be males, when purchased as females, unfortunately it has to be said, there are unscruppulous sellers in all walks of life, but knowingly selling males as females can only be for monetry gain.

Hope you have better luck with your new ones, but as I've said before, with all our Theraphosas, we've not had, as yet touch wood, any moulting problems, and we do keep them all on dry eco-earth, with 2-3 times a week spraying, but we do increase the humidity about 10 days after we are sure they've started pre-moult.