Pokie venom

[darrell hetzel]

hello everyone,
i have had Poecilotheria for a while now. my continuing research has brought me to the subject of venom. i have been finding very conflicting information on the strength of the venom. i have heard everything from swelling to paralisis. i have also heard the P. rufilata has the strongest venom of the genus. i figured asking the community is better than the alternative of getting bit to find out. and as always, any other info on pokies is welcome. thanks for the help.

[Phil Rea]

Painful bite, not unlike many other old world species, more powerful venom in humans than new world tarantulas, possibility of swollen joints, stiffness, dizziness and nausea. Not life threatening.

However I have found that every pokie I have ever kept, has been reluctant to bite, and would rather run and hide, unlike their internet reputation

[Matthew Baines]

I agree with Phil on that one. Poecilotheria will not stand there ground unless cornered.

[wayne balcombe]

I had an escape of about 5 P.Regalis last night as i was re housing my community, they are vary fast and skittish but none attempted to bite me when i crawled around the house on hands and knees lifting furniture and collecting them back up in cricket tubs. these are only small juveniles at about 3 inch legspan but move a hell of alot quicker than expected.

just a quick qiestion for Mathew, knowing you have a fair bit of experience with Poecilotheria, how easy is it to sex them ventrally? and can this be done when they are only 2-3 inch legspan? i've attempted but not totally sure what i'm looking for with this Genus, i'd go by size and say that the bigger ones are males as they all came from the same sac and males grow at a quicker rate but thats unreliable.

[wayne balcombe]

there is a good article written by Ray Gabriel about the effects of the bite of Poecilotheria Pederseni on the on-line articles section of the BTS website. that might be worth a read if you have not found it already.

[paul fleming]

Pokies will normally flee....the only problem I find is when it comes time to re-house but even that is not difficult with correct planning.
I am a lot more wary of my H.maculata to be honest....not that it has stronger venom but it is qucker and will not hesitate to bite first and ask questions later.
We also have to remember that we are talking about tarantulas here and so far,there have been not recorded deaths so it is not all gloom and doom on the pokie front,as nasty and painful as the bite may be that is.
Planning (where and how to re-house) and a calm cool head will save the day in my opinion......so far anyway
Have fun all
Poecilotheria have,and always will be my favourite tarantulas by the way......all because of Dan,my pokie mentor.

[darrell hetzel]

thanks for the info. i figuered that the reports of peralisis where not substantiated. my pokie is very skittish and very, VERY fast. i am dreding rehousing. but i know this is basic pokie behavior. what i am looking for is the spicies that has the strongest venom, and how do the effects vary between species if they do. hope your rehousing adventure turned out positive Wayne. the thought of rehousing any commune has always intemidated me. i think that is acctualy the main reson i have not started one.

[paul fleming]

thanks for the info. i figuered that the reports of peralisis where not substantiated. my pokie is very skittish and very, VERY fast. i am dreding rehousing. but i know this is basic pokie behavior. what i am looking for is the spicies that has the strongest venom, and how do the effects vary between species if they do. hope your rehousing adventure turned out positive Wayne. the thought of rehousing any commune has always intemidated me. i think that is acctualy the main reson i have not started one.

Strongest T venom is a toss up between pokies and Selenocosmia... maybe any Haplo species...
What are you looking for ?
I could give non DWA that would knock the socks off a black widow or funnel web but why are you asking ?
I must be fair,I do not like your post mate......why are you asking ?

[darrell hetzel]

i am asking just because i like to have as much information as possable on the spiders i keep. i do understand that it is a kind of random and pointless question. i was just curious. i do have a H. lividum and was bit once during an escape. it got me through my jeans and was still painfull.

[wayne balcombe]

from what i have read the effects between bites of various species differes so much its hard to determine which is the worst, if your asking out of mere curiosity heres one to ponder.............

As far as Theraphosid bites go it seems Poecilotheria has the longest lasting effects, with symptoms lasting up to two weeks after the initial tag. Selenocosmia seems to be more af an acute reaction that are extreemly painful (see bite report written by Ray and Angela Hale same place as the Poecilotheria bite article) but the symptoms seem to last only a few days. Selenocosmia Venom however has been reported to cause death in our 4 legged friends within half hour of beeing bitten,

For interest only the most venomous spider recorded to date is of the Genus Phoneutria a type of wandering spider from South America, its venom is reported to be many time more potant than that of Latrodectus spp. (the widow family) or Atrax robustum (Sydney funnel web).

The affects of a any bite are dependent on the Physiology of the victim and will be different for many people and other animals alike. my advise is not to get bitten to find out.

[darrell hetzel]

thank you Wayne. how long the efects of the venom last is great information. you dont happen to know the species name of the Phoneutria, do you? i have always heard that the Atrax robustum is the worst.

[Peter Lacey]

Paul, you've asked similar questions in other forums! Its something people will always be curious about, for various reasons.

There are lots of bite reports on various forums (check out the Americans where handling is condoned to find more reports) that involve a number of species of tarantula. The effects seem to vary from hot needle like incision, muscle spasms, aching joints, nausea, breathing difficulties, heart palpatations and flu like symptoms which last from a few days to a few weeks. As the bites are not properly measured experiments we can only go on the detail provided, without knowing any previous medical history, amount of envenomation and other factors. But we can guess that if the tarantula decides to give a venomous bite rather than a dry bite (which seem more often but less often reported) you'll get at least some of the symptoms above.
As far as I'm aware, there have been few papers written on comparing the strength of venom of tarantula to find the most potent however there are papers on specific species. There's a good report on the Australian Selenocosmia species in ATA: www.theata.org which highlights the pain experienced by a number of people after a bite and the reaction with cats and dogs, all of which died within half hour of being bitten. There's also a lot of studies on tarantula venom, notably Chilobrachy, currently in China, but the terminology is a little over my head.

You might want to seek this paper:
Composition and neurotoxicity of tarantula venoms:
"The venoms of the ca. 37,000 spider species represents a largely unexplored source of neurotoxic and insecticidal peptides.
... The family Theraphosidae (“true tarantula”) includes ca. 800 species.
... We have conducted a toxicity survey of 39 venoms by intracerebroventricular injection in mice, and studied their composition by reversed-phas HPLC and MALDI-TOF mass spectrometry.

As for rehousing, the best advice is to put the old enclosure into the new one and over a course of a few days start to remove the furnishings. The pokie will do the rest

[Phil Rea]

For interest only the most venomous spider recorded to date is of the Genus Phoneutria a type of wandering spider from South America, its venom is reported to be many time more potant than that of Latrodectus spp. (the widow family) or Atrax robustum (Sydney funnel web).

The affects of a any bite are dependent on the Physiology of the victim and will be different for many people and other animals alike. my advise is not to get bitten to find out.

Good advice regarding not getting bitten, but Phoneutria spp. is not necessarily the strongest venom. Each venom is a different cocktail to other venoms and it is not necessarily helpful to compare different types such as neurotoxic and cytotoxic venoms. They have entirely different physiological effects. Each can end your life in fairly unpleasant ways, so best not to experiment!

The male sydney funnel web will come into contact with more people, purely because of its habitat near and in a centre of population, so in real terms it is far more dangerous than a rainforest dweller. However, there is antivenin available close by, and they are very geared up to deal with bites there, so the bite is perhaps less risky

We have not discovered every species on the planet yet, so there may be a spider out there that will make the usual suspects pale into insignificance, but we have either not come across it, or it does not come into human contact very often or at all.

We should also remember that any unpleasant effects from spider venom on humans are unexpected side-effects. They have not evolved to envenomate us.

thank you Wayne. how long the efects of the venom last is great information. you dont happen to know the species name of the Phoneutria, do you? i have always heard that the Atrax robustum is the worst.

See above

Strongest T venom is a toss up between pokies and Selenocosmia... maybe any Haplo species...
What are you looking for ?
I could give non DWA that would knock the socks off a black widow or funnel web but why are you asking ?
I must be fair,I do not like your post mate......why are you asking ?

Stromatopelma spp., or Lampropelma spp. are reputedly far worse than any you have mentioned, but again it's mostly subjective. I would say the worst tarantula bite is the one that gets you

There is not enough data on tarantula venom, to be clear on which is the strongest or not, and why.

[wayne balcombe]

Thank you peter, a very comprehensive post that has answered the question and supplied the oppertunity for further reasearch into the subject.

Darrell, there are 8 species of the genra Phoneutria all are considered quite venomous but P.nigriventer probably has the most toxic venom according to scientific research. A quick google search on the species will give you plenty of information as this spider has had a fair amount of publicity over the last few years.

[wayne balcombe]

My mistake Phill. The statement i made about Phoneutria spp. having the most potent venom may have been a little hasty but was based on research into that specific genra.
The type of toxins in spider venom do vary and it is our Physiological reaction to the different types and componants in the venom and our body's way of trying to metabolise these that causes the symptoms people have experienced. with Phoneutria spp. the proximity of their habbitat to human dwellings, their agressive temperament and the lack of an antivenom is probably the cause of the the "bad rap" they have recieved.

Though all the "usual susspects" are considered to be dangerous the worst reaction to any bite i've whitnessed was a bite delivered by none other than our very own house spider Tegineria gigantia, the individual bitten had an acute reaction to the venom and suffered anaphalaxis almost immediately and had we (the medical proffesionals) not be close at hand the result would most certainly have been death.