pokie mum weak after incubating sac

[Lisa Ashforth]

My P. fasciata abandoned her egg sac on Sunday, 3 weeks after making it. The sac looks OK, so I've got it in an incubator and will look inside this weekend when 4 weeks have passed since laying.

But I'm mainly worried about the mum. When I took the sac out, I could see she was very lethargic and I have had her in an ICU since Sunday with no improvement. She isn't curled, but she's staggering round like she's drunk, she is also very thin. She had not been out of her hide to eat or drink since well before Christmas so I assume she's dehydrated. I have provided a water bowl in the ICU as well as soaking the tissue, but I don't think she has used it. I also offered a pre killed cricket but she has shown no interest in that, either.

Has anyone had any success with "force feeding" poorly spiders using liquidised crickets or similar? Is it worth a try?

[paul fleming]

How is the fella ?
No chance there is still ARDAP kicking around Lisa ?
I have used the stuff for all my snakes in the past and although it says that it is active for 6 weeks or so.......I would seriously think it is more like months and months.
The first thing we did when we started with the insect/spider/T type thing was to get rid of ARDAP and every household spray you can think of (maybe you should have done the same ?)
Pity really because ARDAP is so good at killing snake mites (insects,spiders,scorpions,any type of invertebrate really).
Hope my boy (P.fasciata) is ok and he has not met the same fate ?
Sounds chemical to me.

http://www.quiko.co.uk/Ardap.htm

[Colin D Wilson]

Hi Lisa

What age is the pokie, is there a chance she may be just old and unfortunately just ticking over in her last few days after having a "late in life" sac.
also what does her abdomen look like, if it's quite rounded then dehydration might not be as serious a concern as one would first think.

as to pauls point about pest control chemicals, do any other spiders (inverts in general) show any signs of being lethargic or "ill".

If you can turn the spider over and mush up some cricket / waxworms (or similar) then you can technically "drip feed" onto the mouth parts, i've heard it being done several times (once with a spider with no fangs due to a dodgy moult if i remember.

If you dont feel like holding the spider then cut a hole out of a cricket tub, place the spider in this tub with its mouth parts at the hole and then place a second tub inside and apply gentle pressure on it to hold the spider in place (effectively sandwiching the spider between the two tub bottoms), use sticky tape to hold it in this position leaving both hands to turn the tubs over and feed the spider. (this also works for active spiders where you have to apply first aid to damaged bosy parts as well)

[Phil Rea]

Sounds very like dehydration to me Lisa. Colin's idea of a modified spi-pot using two crix tubs is ingenious

Ardap is mostly permeithrin, so it interferes with the nervous system of insects (and I presume arachnids). It generally kills on contact, and if there are not any other casualties, I would probably rule out anything environmental, and go for the simplest explanation. If it is insecticide though then unfortunately I would say that there is very little chance of recovery

I think the priority is to try and get some water in her more than anything.

[Lisa Ashforth]

Let me just clarify for Paul's benefit that this spider has not been in contact with any pesticides. She had been sealed into her hide since the middle of December. None of my other spiders are ill.

She is quite a young female and this is her first sac.

I've been drip feeding her water as best I can and she seems no worse. I may try the spi-pot method as it will save me trying to restrain her with one hand while attempting to administer water with the other.

[paul fleming]

If you check on AB,someone had the exact same symptons with their spiders.....very lethargic.....turned out to be bleach.
Their dogs had urinated on the spider room floor and one of the family cleaned it with bleach.
Hope the spider makes a full recovery.

[Mark Pennell]

Let me just clarify for Paul's benefit that this spider has not been in contact with any pesticides. She had been sealed into her hide since the middle of December. None of my other spiders are ill.

She is quite a young female and this is her first sac.

I've been drip feeding her water as best I can and she seems no worse. I may try the spi-pot method as it will save me trying to restrain her with one hand while attempting to administer water with the other.

Lisa
If its just this one isolated spider I suspect its just her problem. If you carry on with the intensive care she may just pull through, she may well be still holding eggs and not laid them all. This can happen I had a A, versicolor do this and then unfortunately died. However I believe this genus can double clutch so she might just up and do that.

Keep up the good work and take notes and perhaps write something up so others can learn from your experiences.

Cheers
Mark.

P.S As for bad things to have round the house, a common air freshener use to remove dog and pet smells which contains a product called NoDor (no-odour) will also put pay to all your spiders... oh and fish!

[Lisa Ashforth]

Thank you for your concern Paul

Mark, I didn't know fasciata could double-clutch. But from the small size of her abdomen now, I would doubt she has any eggs still left inside (she was huge before)

I don't use any air fresheners or indeed any aerosols in the room where the spiders are. It gets vacuumed and damp-dusted with a plain cloth.

I'll keep on with the ICU and watering for now, and have bought a syringe to try and give her some mealworm "paste". If I manage to save her, maybe I'll write up a little report.

On the plus side, I opened up her sac today and found over 100 eggs and N1's, of which only a few look bad.

[paul fleming]

[QUOTE=Colin D Wilson;46790]Hi Lisa


as to pauls point about pest control chemicals, do any other spiders (inverts in general) show any signs of being lethargic or "ill".

Have you lost any other spiders recently Lisa ?

Have you lost any other spiders recently Lisa showing the same or similar symptons ?

[Lisa Ashforth]

*edited for the sake of politeness*

[Ray Gabriel]

Is she holding the pedipalps under her chelicerae?

Ray

[Lisa Ashforth]

Hi Ray, no she isn't. The ends of her pedipalps are resting on the ground. She's sitting kind of like a terrestrial spider sits ("knees" bent but legs not curled under). She can straighten out her legs when she wants to - she struggles and waves her legs when I give her water.

She can walk a few steps but seems to have little strength and soon sits down on the ground. I've offered her water in a dish and prekilled prey but she seems too weak to bother with either.

I have given her a few drops of mealworm "soup" made by squishing the goo out of half a dozen mealies and mixing it up with water!

[Ray Hale]

The thing we all seem to forget is that we are dealing with wild animals here. Sometimes Nature just know best. I have had healthy spiders roll over and die before now. We dont know the reasons and second guessing isnt helpful. The truth is that the wild many animals ( spiders or not) find egg laying or live birth very traumatic and many do in fact suffer as a consequence.In my opinion this problem is not caused by any external factor and is more than likley an internal issue with the spider bought on by a number of possibilities.
PS : When it come to Pokeys, Ray Gabriel is your man. He knows a thing or two about them.
Hope this helps

Ray

[Lisa Ashforth]

The thing we all seem to forget is that we are dealing with wild animals here. Sometimes Nature just know best. I have had healthy spiders roll over and die before now. We dont know the reasons and second guessing isnt helpful. The truth is that the wild many animals ( spiders or not) find egg laying or live birth very traumatic and many do in fact suffer as a consequence.In my opinion this problem is not caused by any external factor and is more than likley an internal issue with the spider bought on by a number of possibilities.
PS : When it come to Pokeys, Ray Gabriel is your man. He knows a thing or two about them.
Hope this helps

Ray

I'm sure you're right Ray. Given the absence of any external factors such as insecticide exposure, and given the fact she is not curled and her abdomen is not wrinkled (thereby ruling out dehydration), I can only assume that the effort of laying and incubating her eggs has damaged her internally in some way. I realise I will probably lose her, but I feel I can't euthanise her without giving her a few more days' chance to recover and seeing if some nourishment will help.

A lot of people would say "it's just a spider and these things happen" and indeed I have lost spiders before, but this is my first breeding attempt that has resulted in a successful sac. So I guess she is a bit extra special.

Thanks to those of you who have kindly offered me your advice and suggestions.

[Dan Kennard]

Could it not be that the she may just be in premoult? At the risk of disturbing her, you could try shining a torch under her carapace and legs. If she's in premoult, then hardly any light should pass through, otherwise the carapace & legs should glow bright orange, with a lot of sub surface scattering.