B annitha or B smithi?

[Taki Tsonis]

Can anyone tell me for sure wether i have a B annitha or smith from these spermathecae pics?



and from the other side....

[matthew spooner]

hiya Taki, i cannot tell by the spermathecae but if you have a photograph of the carapace you can get a good idea by the colouring, for instance...

brachypelma annitha


brachypelma smithi



hope this helps

[Taki Tsonis]

Thanks Matthew. The thing is that her carapace looks more like smithi but I've seen quite varied carapace pictures all over the forums.
The 'classic' annitha carapace looks like the pic you showed but I've seen plenty that have much more black.
That's why I thought the spermathecae would be the better option....

The photos of my B annitha can be found here:

http://www.thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3181

[matthew spooner]

im probably gonna start a 'how can you tell from a pic' comment lol but i would say that you have annitha there, simply because of the ammount of orange in the carapace, although never rule out a hybrid, the two are so close, they may have been mixed up an interbred, some might say that annitha is just a regional variant of smithi anyway

[Eduard Johan Hijmensen]

i wonder if Andrew Smith will give somne light on B. annitha in the next DVD.

Eddy

[wayne balcombe]

From the pictures posted my instinct would have been to say B.smithi as i have a pair here with me and the amount of orrange on the carapace is almost identicle, in fact mine may have a litte more, though now after reading the posts its got me questioning if what i have is not infact annitha or a hybrid?? strange.

I'll try get some pics up later.

[Taki Tsonis]

Hmmmm, I must say hybrid seems quite feasible now. However from the only spermathecae comparison I have been able to find on any of the forums, it looks very distinctly annitha.

[wayne balcombe]

unless i'm getting mixed up i thought the spermathecae for smithi and annitha looked the same, at least to my untrained eye.

[Taki Tsonis]

From all the pics I have looked at there seems to be a very slight difference between the spermathecae...


Also as far as carapace colouring goes, these pics look no different to mine not so?

http://www.brachypelmas.co.uk/just%2...nitha/2lrg.htm

http://www.brachypelmas.co.uk/just%20brachypelma/gallery/images/annitha/3lrg.htm

[stuart longhorn]

Hi, sadly spermathecae shape does not seem very useful to distinguish these. nevertheless well done for posting some really nice pictures, great camera work. In future, I suggest remove the uterus externus, I think maybe you are confusing that on the last picture, do a quick search on that if you don't know what I mean please.

Carapace colour isn't really a great indicator of B.annitha, but in some such cases the banding on leg 4 can be diagnostic. A quick look at the main overview pics on the other thread suggest that despite a smithi like carapace it does to me stand a reasonable chance to have annitha blood, but I'm afraid it's a difficult one, even though I have seen plenty now. Anyway, I'm. Not going to rule out B.anntha or a hybrid, or a variant., sorry!

[Taki Tsonis]

Thanks for the input Stuart. Could you be more specific about the leg 4 banding please, what should I be looking for exactly?
I re took the photo from the other side bypassing the uterus externus, is that sufficient or is it better to remove the uterus externus and still take the photo from the other side?

[stuart longhorn]

Ok, what i mean is that one possibility is about the completeness the light band on the tibia (not the the knee segment but the one below). In alot of the spiders sold as smithi, the band on the fourth rear leg drops away lower as it wraps around the 'inside' of the leg, while in those sold as annitha the band stays more complete.

Its just a theory, would be great if lots of people go look at their spiders and see if it stands up to test. Also, really i have not seen enough spiders from known locations across the ranges in mexico to judge how diagnostic such minor color differences are. It seems carapace color is rather variable and not useful, and i strongly suspect leg banding differences are too variable also.

The spermathecae pictures, and those of the entire spiders are really amazing (what setup do you use?), but sadly not much help to try and get you an identification, the spermathecae of several 'red-leg' species are all much the same, and differences in shape can be indiviual specific, age specific, or appear different due to drying. Spermathecae on moults can get a different shape due to drying distortion...part of the problem when some past taxonomists have based bad descriptions on moults alone.

Anyway, amazing pictures, and really great to see some excellent spermathecae pictures, makes a nice change from people asking about Id from overview pics alone.

Best Wishes..
stuart.

@Eddy, naughty comment. Shame on you, moderator and all.

[Taki Tsonis]

Thanks again, I'll go have a look at the leg banding as a matter of interest. I use a Nikon macro setup for the pics btw

[Taki Tsonis]

A quick and interesting update: I haven't been able to confirm the leg banding theory but my sling B annitha which had the classic narrow black v on the carapace just moulted and guess what....... the carapace when almost entirely black like my big T and now looks like a smithi!!!
I feel much more confident that my original T is also an annitha now as I saw another very big one the other day and they have a hard to describe different 'look' to smithi in the flesh. They somehow appear to have slightly longer, fluffier setae on their legs and even opisthosomas.