overfeeding

[paul fleming]

Is it possible to overfeed a T?
I always thought it was,especially with my lasiodoras who do not not when to stop.The last thing I want to see is an abdomen dragging along the ground.
I also thought overfeeding (if there is such a thing) could have a detrimental affect on the T's health in the same way as overfeeding snakes for instance.
I would really like to know the answer to this question if anyone can help.
Paul

[Ray Hale]

Based on my observations over the years I have noticed that overfeeding may have a detrimental effect on the health of the spider. The goliath being a prime example. A good friend of mine ( reptile keeper now unfortunatly deceased) had the biggest goliath I had ever seen. Its abdomen was the size of a tennis ball ( I kid you not). The spider was very lethargic and had trouble shedding.

I beleive its a bit like tomatoes. You can get a tomato to a huge size by force feeding it and keeping it warm but it does not improve the flavour ( Have you have eaten a Burger King ?). I reckon that by overfeeding you can get a very large spider with a shortend life expectancy.

I may be wrong and welcome any thoughts

[James Box]

i'll bow to your years of experience here, Ray, but i'm wondering if it's possible that some species may have an overdeveloped feeding response due to limited seasonal availability in the wild, but others might have a more controlled appetite?
i find with my collection, either they apparently metabolise their food very quickly (like my Asian spiders) and thus rarely stay fat for long, or, as with the Aphonopelmas, they simply ignore food most of the time?
in the first case, the data is skewed by how quickly they lose weight, and in the other, i have spiders that eat enough, and then stop for ages...
does that indicate perhaps some modicum of "self control" in those species?
it's an interesting debate...there's a similar one with scorpions, but what i've read is that a scorpion will eat what it needs, fill up like a concertina and look like it's gonna pop, and then it will go off and digest its food ("Scorpions," Rubio, 200. however, conventional wisdom has said that they will eat til they die, or that it's "unhealthy". however, in my experience, i've found it to be true, they refuse food for a while, and it doesn't even shorten their lives, because they simply fast for longer after a bigger meal.
that's still governed by a healthy "feast and famine" style of eating in the wild.
i wonder if there's any chance it's similar for some species of tarantula?
that blondi tale makes me doubt it however!!!
its certainly more dangerous for a fat tarantula to fall than a slender one...whereas that danger is miniscule for most scorps

[paul fleming]

My large female Lp once got an abdomen the size of a tennis ball.......I was pretty worried so cut right back on her food.
Surely they would not get to this size in the wild and only gey that big if overfed ?
She was just "fat".,,,no other words to describe her.
I definately think they can be overfed in the same way snakes and scorpions can certainly be overfed.I have seen this for myself and have pics to show it.
Paul

[James Box]

well, spiders and snakes and scorpions are all entirely different creatures, and comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges to plums. or maybe tomatoes!

scorpions, as i said, CANNOT be overfed. they stop when they are full, unless something in their temperatures etc are wrong, and then they generally don't eat at all.

with spiders however, it seems to be possible that they can suffer if the eat to much.

to compare it to obesity for example is not correct, however, as food is not stored as fat. food is ground into a pulp while digested externally, than sucked in as a liquid. all solid bits that can't be reduced in this way are expelled as the bolus.
can they suck in too much of this in a frenzy while believing it to be feeding season, and do this too often and too much in captivity because we don't often provide seasonal feeding periods versus dormant digestion periods? it seems the case for some species! Lp's and Tb's for example, may be subject to that.

but i think some species may have a stronger instinctual sense of "enough's enough" and stop at that point, and go off and digest. this is probably due to climatic signals we are possibly giving, either consciously or unconsciously, or perhaps due to our own local climatic changes.
this appears to be the case with Grammastola and Aphonopelma, who are notorious for going off food for ages at a time.

however i agree, Paul, going by what else i've read on this forum, in the wild most spiders won't get as much as we typically feed in captivity. they are almost never (so i've read) found plump in the wild, they're generally found slender. however, who knows, maybe if we observed them in the wild, in the most idea example, maybe there are seasons when they pack themselves absolutely full, and go off to lie dormant and digest, waiting for the next season of abundance.

in captivity, it's probable that the cycle does sometimes get messed up, causing the spider to believe that it's feeding time again.

researching seasons of plentiful prey in the spiders' localities may help us to understand when it's wise to provide an abundance, or when it's time to give them a rest for a few months.

then again, i may be wrong on all of this...it's just conjecture. i'm reasonably sure about the scorpion thing however, as that's backed up by current literature and some experience

[paul fleming]

If a very,very fat scorpion is healthy,I have to agree with you then James.
I also know that snakes,spiders and scorpions are a little bit different but I was only using that comparison in relation to the adverse affects over feeding has on the creatures as well as eating until they are ready to bust if given the chance .
I started the thread because of observations I have made with my snakes,spiders and scorpions.
I realise I have less experience than most here but again,I am just asking a question and stating what I believe due to my own experience with these animals.
Paul

[Ray Hale]

Any observations made on any animal is worthy of discussion and indeed most of the thing we know about tarantulas have come from enthusiastic amatures who have a passion for spiders. I would like to see some properly conducted studies over a period of time coming to light and then published in our journal as this is the type of thing that warrants further investigation. I am sure some of you guys who keep meticulous records on feeding ect have some great data on this topic. If so what about an article..

I take on board some of your points James and have carried out a number of sesonal feeding studies in the wild. I would agree that there is a certain amount of seasonal feeding present and when times are lean tarantulas particularly Asian species can cease feeding until prey items become readily availble. Its an area that certainly needs more research and one that I look forward to reading more on in the future.

Ray

[James Box]

well just my experience Paul, but scorpions eat to a point beyond what we think possible, then go off and hide and refuse food for ages while they digest. a bigger meal = longer digestion times = longer fast.
just what i've seen and heard and read, really. but naturally, all that could be wrong...it remains to be seen i guess

i suppose what occurs in nature is cyclic, so therefore it must be rare for an animal to need the instinct to protect itself from overeating, but that instinct still seems to be present for some animals.

yeah i agree Ray...it's a shame i'm so rubbish with record keeping, though never too late to start!!! it's cool what you've seen with the Asian spiders, it meshes with what i've come to glean about some of the NW spiders as well...or at least the ones that fast for ages.

[paul fleming]

Same here James
The only reason I mentioned the scorps was that when I posted pics of some of mine,which were obviously fat and well fed,I had numerous comments from "experts" telling me I was overfeeding them and it would have an adverse effect on their health.....as well as shortening their life spans.
You and Ray are right about the need to get the data together and make a study though....which could help the hobby no end which has to be good.
Paul
ps...This is a good discussion and I do hope we get lots more input.

[James Box]

fair enough mate
my understanding (such as it is) is that for scorps specifically, they aren't affected by overfeeding the same way as other animals.
i personally get my scorps to be a bit tubby then back off with feeding for a bit. the young ones in particular seem to get really fat, and then moult perfectly well despite the extra bulk, which i believe they transfer directly into their new size...
but again, i may be wrong!
i'd personally say feed em up til they don't want any more, and then let them slim down again before next feed... which might be a month or more in some cases. they'll probably let you know when they're ready when they finally accept food again.

ok back to the spiders, i guess this is one of those cases where as many of us as can manage it take notes and see what happens with either loads of food or not that much, as well as temps and humidity.
then we can compare it to locality data and see what turns up...
sounds like a project!