mice as food??

[Peter Lacey]

I'm not aware of anyone referring to the issue as DS, whether that be correct or not. Similarly we refer to urticating bristles as hair. Its a common mistake, but its commonly used and accepted, I'm sure we'll get Colin on board with it too

To my experience DkS is NOT the same as dehydration, although they may have similar symptoms. I'd like to think Ive only lost one T to dehydration, in my earlier years, but Ive seen others. They act drunk, unstable and extend legs beyond whats needed to walk, they're slow and they'll readily take water. Those that have shown signs of DkS display a completely different character - they seem to turn into a ball of wavering legs, frantically running around the enclosure in fear of any food items, disturbance or movement from the hobbyist. Ive tried to video this numerous times with the P. miranda I mentioned earlier, it moved so fast it didnt record on video, certainly none of the lethargy that Ive found in dehydrated individuals. Check the video out if you havent already, that was recorded as the P. formosa neared the end of its life, it was certainly faster than that in the earlier stages.
As I explained above, Im not qualified to suggest this was definitely down to the locusts, nor am I qualified to suggest its a specific syndrome or illness. But, having removed locusts from the diet Ive no longer had issues, same with Matt in Colchester and I expect Dan in Portsmouth. It would be interesting to know if others have noticed this correlation or if they have had tarantula grow through this syndrome by moulting out, as Matt suggested to me to be his only survivor.

[Colin D Wilson]

Similarly we refer to urticating bristles as hair. Its a common mistake, but its commonly used and accepted, I'm sure we'll get Colin on board with it too

I usually refer to urticating setae as bristles or hair but as Mr. M Overton refered to them as hair in his 2002 article about urticating hair tyes of theraphosids ....that'll do for me

And no.... i think i'm too old and pedantic to come on board Pete heh heh

The thing that irritates (yes irritates) me is i remember the general time when some bloke refered to the actions of his tarantula being "similar" to someone who was displaying dyskinesia ... within the next week everybody was on the band wagon saying their tarantula had Dyskinetic syndrome .... if he'd had said "cold like symptoms" we'd all be saying our tarantulas had flu now ... i just think we should call it something (anything) unique and spider related.

[Nick Ashley]

We seem to be slightly going off topic but what the hell..it's Friday! Never heard the uritcating hairs refered to as bristles before.. always been hairs. Just looked up the definition of a bristle and one of the answers is a stiff hair, which it is I guess.. but still a hair. So for me it will stay as a hair..

Watched Peter's video of his Poeci and found it most alarming. Have had spiders exhibit a variety of issues/behaviours over the years but never anything like that! That's pretty crazy! However,as Peter says, I do not believe that it could be attributed to dehydration... as spider movement is based partly on blood pressure if a spider becomes severely dehydrated they tend to become sluggish (which more likely explains the drunken effect in other instances). I would think the cause of that is somethinge else,more likely a parastical/fungal/bacterial infection. But that is purely an opinion. As for the term DKS..well I had never heard that until I started looking at the forum and at this time isn't a term I would use.

[Neill House]

I'm not aware of anyone referring to the issue as DS, whether that be correct or not. Similarly we refer to urticating bristles as hair. Its a common mistake, but its commonly used and accepted, I'm sure we'll get Colin on board with it too

To my experience DkS is NOT the same as dehydration, although they may have similar symptoms. I'd like to think Ive only lost one T to dehydration, in my earlier years, but Ive seen others. They act drunk, unstable and extend legs beyond whats needed to walk, they're slow and they'll readily take water. Those that have shown signs of DkS display a completely different character - they seem to turn into a ball of wavering legs, frantically running around the enclosure in fear of any food items, disturbance or movement from the hobbyist. Ive tried to video this numerous times with the P. miranda I mentioned earlier, it moved so fast it didnt record on video, certainly none of the lethargy that Ive found in dehydrated individuals. Check the video out if you havent already, that was recorded as the P. formosa neared the end of its life, it was certainly faster than that in the earlier stages.
As I explained above, Im not qualified to suggest this was definitely down to the locusts, nor am I qualified to suggest its a specific syndrome or illness. But, having removed locusts from the diet Ive no longer had issues, same with Matt in Colchester and I expect Dan in Portsmouth. It would be interesting to know if others have noticed this correlation or if they have had tarantula grow through this syndrome by moulting out, as Matt suggested to me to be his only survivor.

I agree, having had bought one dehydrated (that is getting better now), and another with DkS.. however to the unknowing eye, they could be the same, and this is kinda the point I am trying to make. The term 'DKS' has become a smokescreen to any other amount of potential problems, and as I am sure all can appreciate, this does nothing to help us in our understanding.

That said, anyone who puts at 'My T has DKS..HELP' thread, is usually asked if it could be dehydrated.

[Colin D Wilson]

Nick, you're right mate, we have swayed a little off topic.
Still everyone, including me supprisingly , is being constructive and there's still a tenuous link to nutrition here.
As long as the original poster doesn't mind, and as long as the thread continues like it is then i think it's a good debate.

[Christian Elowsky]

If I may stir the pot a bit...

1) Digestive enzyme which is inactive at low and high temperatures? Someone has to have a reference to that, as it's pretty darn specific and I wouldn't expect Colin to share that without literature. I am very interested in this and would happily read any posts/articles/information anyone has to share on the topic (PM if you'd like to stay on topic for this thread).

2) Urticaria is caused by urticating setae (seta is singular), and some authors, Dr. Steven Reichling, do not use the terms "bristles", yet other (Dr. Rainer Foelix) use hairs, bristles, and setae interchangeably. The biological reason they're not "hairs" is because they're out growths of the exoskeleton, not protein based filaments found only in mammals. I use hairs with tarantulas and plants though, and sleep just fine at night.

3)DKS, I have ranted for years about this term. The best that I can come up with is a weak definition: Uncontrolled behavior or movements, including high stepping, stumbling and falling over violently, most strongly noted after stimulus. As it's a term coined to describe a set of observations, and those observations can occur with dehydration, I see no problem saying they are the same (or more that one, dehydration, leads to those behaviors). I have also seen these sorts of behaviors linked to diet (back on topic!), and exposure to pesticides or organic solvents. No one has linked the observations to any pathogen, unless someone on that side of the puddle is keeping things quiet!

Lastly, this is one of the more rewarding threads that I have read in quite some time. I always prefer a thread which goes more than 5 posts and yet has meat to it (back on topic!).

Thank you for posting!

Christian

[Colin D Wilson]

Stiring pots is good in this respect, as you say there's more meat in this general subject to be found.

As for sharing without literature, not normally no... this time i'm sharing without being able to find the literature i looked up after having a conversation with Ray Gabriel a couple of years back. Ray mentioned this digestive enigma on here at the time too, i've looked back via search and cant find the post though.
The article i found that this was included in was actually someone at a research laboratory or similar from your side of the big puddle Christian, i think the general proposal of the article was pest control.

The first time i can across Dyskinetic syndrome or Dyskinesia was whilst working at a local mental institution in the midlands, England. It was used as a medical "label" for the symptoms/side effects from the withdrawal or transferal effects on people using mood stabilising drugs, and in the more severe case (tardive dyskinesia) the side effects of some stronger anti-psycotics.
So, technically, as it describes a side effect, unless we've given our spider drugs ...they can't have it.
Now for a tenuous link....... if the spiders suffering a neurological issue after being effected by chemicals etc ... i suppose then it could be said that the spiders showing dyskinesia

[Neill House]

The chemical route is going to be one of those routes I think we will never fully investigate.. certainly not for the hobby aspect of it, given that we would need to be happy to potentially sacrifice quite a few T's, as well as be able to separate chemical compounds etc. Ultimately worth it in my opinion, but I am sure it will just reconfirm that we shouldn't be using the things we already are wary of using.

The locust stuff I am 96.9% sure I read on one of the American forums.. I'll see if I can dig it out again. I haven't used them since then however, my T's not touching them being a blessing in disguise. This has me thinking that there is bound to be people out there who have done papers regarding most of our common food items, and it might be worth getting them and studying them.

[Grant Brown]

I think the biggest problem with the DS/DKS thing is the latency involved.

It's difficult to prove or disprove the possible accumulated effects of a substance, feeder item etc, because if it happens a day afterwards, then are we sure it wasn't something prior? Vice versa, if it occurs months or years afterwards, can we even remember/identify the source, and are we sure it's not something more recent?

Because people tend to approach keeping tarantulas in a very experimental and somewhat random fashion (i.e. your house is very different from another, the feeding regme often variers per spider per keeper and chemical etc will vary location to location) I'd be very wary about trying to draw too strong a link between such (co)incidences. Then again, if someone shows that locusts are toxic then it seems logical enough to draw a link. It's be nice to see that reference, shed some light on it. I find it interesting because many insects have chemical defense, yet arachnids still prey upon them with apparently no ill-effects. This would be one of the few more solid links if reliable.

[Peter Lacey]

I remembered this discussion as I posted in another forum.

Rod Dillon (University of Liverpool) wrote a paper on gut bacteria of locusts and suggested "an increase in bacterial diversity in starved locusts" and an increase in enterobacteriaceae (a group of which salmonella and e coli are members). Considering locusts can continually eat we have to ask if the locusts we keep for feeding are well fed, and if not does this increase in bacteria have an affect on the prey.

[Colin D Wilson]

That article is very similar to the one i read by an American scientist, primarily aimed at bacteria control within the locust to serve as a means for pest control.

The article/reference paper i have mislaid specifically made reference points to a digestive enzyme that lay dormant when the locust was at optimum feeding temp and had ample food, the enzyme "reactivated" and became toxic when the temperature was too low for optimum digestion.
He made references to the fact that the enzyme "could" cause medical problems in predators when toxicity reached certain levels within the animal. He also suggested from research that certain predators would not attemp to eat a locust that was at a low temp but would take a locust at optimum digestive temp with no hesitation. Another experiment showed that some small mammals would take locusts at a slightly lower temp if there was ample food about for the locust itself, if the food was removed the mammals would hesitate to feed, thus showing an inbuilt intuition that the prey item "may" cause issues if eaten.
I cannot remember if this enzyme issue proved applicable through the locusts life or if it was just apparent in adults.

[Danny Dreis]

In regards to over feeding being a cause to molting problems. I have seen here in OZ a few problems with mature males tring to molt again and dieing. Could this be due to over feeding?
Our hobbie is vey small in conparison to the UK,US ect. and the veriety of sp. small as we can not import but I do know that there has been alot of talk about power feeding T's to get a bigger T quicker and have alsways wondered if this in fact is true. As for feeding pre killed pinkies I have fed my T's a few times but as said before once in a blue moon. As said earlier in the wild these animals are more active for they will have to at some time in there life fast for an extended time (certainly here in the arid areas) and have encounters with preditors all of which has been mentioned earlier. Basicaly I think that captive T's don't need to be fed mice,pinkies unless it's condition is poor and it needs a good feed for what ever reason.

[James Box]

some interesting stuff on this thread. to return it slightly to the original topic...i've only fed a mouse twice to my spiders. the first was my parahybana, and she got a "spare" fluff that had no-one else to eat it. she surprised me by eating ...everything! there were no remains that i could see!
i also fed my cambridgei one, as an experiment (probably a bad one as it's probably not common for them to eat anything warm blooded that lacks wings where they live), but she didn't dispose of it as thoroughly.
i figured "as a treat" it wasn't going to be a massive problem eating one once in their life times...

Christian, i agree with what you're saying about overfeeding. i think the fact i had bad luck with Haplopelma might've been down to that...though of course i've not done anything like controlled tests.
most of my spiders get fed once or twice a month...and it's rare for them to be skinny in all that time. i am often shocked that people feed as many as 5 crickets a week! it makes me wonder if they've ever read the comments on here by some of the committee members and other knowledgeable people that they've NEVER seen a fat tarantula in the wild! it's shocking.

at the risk of generalising, these creatures have slow metabolisms and can cope with long periods of famine before the rainy season etc brings the rare abundance of food that they need to get by through the next period of famine.

these are tough animals that can withstand alot of hardship in the wild...but one hardship they haven't yet evolved to cope with is the care of the well-meaning (or impatient) hobbyist...

incidentally, i've never had problems with locusts...EVER. and i've never heard hard evidence that they were dangerous to use.
i use them occasionally on bigger spiders (mine will take them) and on bigger scorpions on occasion (the Emperors like them, but some of the Asian ones don't care).

[Colin D Wilson]

..but one hardship they haven't yet evolved to cope with is the care of the well-meaning (or impatient) hobbyist...

Quote of the year James!!!
You could use this as a preface/forward for all the tarantula books available.