Grammastola questions - Ron Baxter's book

[James Box]

i expect Colin or Lainey will know the answer to this...in Mr Baxter's celebrated book, he's got a couple pictures of G pulchripes and G iheringi that look very unlike what the spiders we call by that name now (i think)...any thoughts as to what they actually are? i was thinking one might've been mollicoma.
it'd be interesting to know how these went from being pulchripes and iheringi to what they are now...
looking at the old books can be somewhat illuminating!

[Colin D Wilson]

Don't have the book to look at James, but..
The picture could just be what they thought the spiders were at the time (as sometimes happens).
If you remeber back to Mr Laceys party a few years ago when Will had the old spider book - the G actaeon was completely black with no red at all, this is how i remember them coming in at first, a bit a research and they found that they were more than likely Northern mollicoma as a new lot of actaeon came in looking like what type specimen they had.

It'll just be a fact of photos making there way into books at certain times for reference of the spiders at "that" time

[James Box]

that's right, Colin, i remember Will's book...and thought it might be something like that. interesting to hear you chased it up a bit and found out the truth, because i think the worry was that the book was right and what was being sold these days was wrong...
it certainly is interesting seeing the old names in books. Brachypelma mesomelas for example lol...

[stuart longhorn]

Well, im looking at the book... 1993 one

The species here as G.pulchripes reminds me very much of one sold as Grammostola sp 'argentina' in the late 90's.

This thread below on arachnoboards maybe useful.. unless i get banned for directing members to arachnoboards. It shows
some argentinian ones that look like the 'Baxter pulchripes'. You know the perils of photo id, and even worse taxonomy
from memory, like i remember Grammostola sp 'argentina' looked like this in the late 90's.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1781846

To me the one baxter labels as G.iheringii looks most like what we now call G.mollicoma, but beware of NCF and SCF

Im personally impressed of the costa rican Crypsidromus sp, that only just came into the hobby again a couple of
years back. Shows old imports coming from Costa rica, giving me more faith in his M.zebratum and 'C'.fasciatum pics!
I also like the Pamphobeteus pics of future Lasiodorides

and my book says its Euathlus mesomelas. ...

[Colin D Wilson]

unless i get banned for directing members to arachnoboards.

Not this time Dr. Longhorn

To me the one baxter labels as G.iheringii looks most like what we now call G.mollicoma, but beware of NCF and SCF

The Northern mollicoma has been easily mistaken in the past with pulchra and acteaon (some actaeon seem to lack (or have reduced amounts of) the reddish setae on the abdomen giving them the mollicoma appearence as they are a bulky spider (such as in Ondrej's photo in his Grammostola species section))
The southern mollicoma has been often confused with alticeps with only the colour of the hairs on the ventral side being brick red instead of silvery blue/grey (common name of "smokey grey tarantula" sort of gives it away). The iheringi show a lot of red on the abdomen as a distinguishing feature.

As Stuart says though ... photo ID is perilous and memory fades or gets adjusted with time.... couple this with photographic records of "what was at the time" and it can get confusing.

I've got porteri, rosea (and it's colour varients), rosea RCF and G. sp "North" to stick under the scope and compare when time, patience and insanity set in. Probably the most common of pets yet one of the biggest enigmas

[James Box]

how confusing! glad things are slowly getting ironed out. this is a great genus, and i love the ones i have!

Colin, just to check NCF "rosea" IS actually porteri, right? just to make sure i'm telling people the correct info!

i did have a mollicoma briefly, but it went elsewhere, hopefully for breeding. was a nice attractice spider!

another favourite of mine was G sp "concepcion"...which i hate to say didn't do well with me. do they have specific care needs? not that i'll get another any time soon

[Colin D Wilson]

many years ago when porteri was the "in term" (still intermingled with cala, spatulata etc) they were a very big spider (5-6 inch LS) and actually looked like a huge version of the Grammostola sp "North" with the brighter colours.
Over the years they seem to have dropped a couple of sizes and appear duller all over, and have nabbed the name of G rosea.
Now i'm not sure (yet ... scope on stand by) if they're the same thing, you still find the odd huge porteri/rosea knocking around and these still seem to have the brighter look to them.
I think myself that they'll have a few taxonomic differences (between the larger and smaller of the two) and enough to seperate them species wise.
Maybe whats happened is the same as the Avicularia versicolor... there's two seperate forms still knocking around in the wild (no matter what people say, i know someone who's seen them first hand) but now we have a hobby form from possible cross breeding of the two forms. If the larger and smaller forms of rosea are compatible in breeding then it's possible we now have a hobby form of rosea.
The G. rosea/porteri seems to have a size difference in the areas that it's found, Northern ones seem bigger and Southern examples seem smaller and more lean with shorter setae. The examples from around the Atacama and Antofagasta are heavy built jobbies, ones i've seen from around Talca and Curico (region de maule) are definitly a slimmer spider, this could just be a regional varient on the same species though and the strange thing is the sp "North" is a smaller spider yet is comparable to rosea/porteri (again scope on stand by)
In the mean time it seems that we're acknowledging the NCF as G porteri, the RCF as G rosea "red colour form (RCF)" and the smaller jobbie as Grammostola sp "north"

Sp "Concepcion" can appreciate a bit more humidity than what we would consider the "norm" for spiders from this region, they seem to "dry out" a little faster than most other grammies so a more regular check on them wouldn't go amiss (a bit like the sp "formosa" needing it a bit more humid in reality, even though it was compared to G pulchra at first that can stand almost arid periods without problem at adult size)

[James Box]

many years ago when porteri was the "in term" (still intermingled with cala, spatulata etc) they were a very big spider (5-6 inch LS) and actually looked like a huge version of the Grammostola sp "North" with the brighter colours.
Over the years they seem to have dropped a couple of sizes and appear duller all over, and have nabbed the name of G rosea.
Now i'm not sure (yet ... scope on stand by) if they're the same thing, you still find the odd huge porteri/rosea knocking around and these still seem to have the brighter look to them.
I think myself that they'll have a few taxonomic differences (between the larger and smaller of the two) and enough to seperate them species wise.
Maybe whats happened is the same as the Avicularia versicolor... there's two seperate forms still knocking around in the wild (no matter what people say, i know someone who's seen them first hand) but now we have a hobby form from possible cross breeding of the two forms. If the larger and smaller forms of rosea are compatible in breeding then it's possible we now have a hobby form of rosea.
The G. rosea/porteri seems to have a size difference in the areas that it's found, Northern ones seem bigger and Southern examples seem smaller and more lean with shorter setae. The examples from around the Atacama and Antofagasta are heavy built jobbies, ones i've seen from around Talca and Curico (region de maule) are definitly a slimmer spider, this could just be a regional varient on the same species though and the strange thing is the sp "North" is a smaller spider yet is comparable to rosea/porteri (again scope on stand by)
In the mean time it seems that we're acknowledging the NCF as G porteri, the RCF as G rosea "red colour form (RCF)" and the smaller jobbie as Grammostola sp "north"

Sp "Concepcion" can appreciate a bit more humidity than what we would consider the "norm" for spiders from this region, they seem to "dry out" a little faster than most other grammies so a more regular check on them wouldn't go amiss (a bit like the sp "formosa" needing it a bit more humid in reality, even though it was compared to G pulchra at first that can stand almost arid periods without problem at adult size)

ahh thanks Colin. i wonder what my 4 spiders are, then haha...they are all "bog standard" for all i know, yet only 2 are similar and i expect are siblings as i've had them since large spiderling size, and they've always been roughly the same.

well i did get one of the large sp ..."northern gold"? i thought they were the smaller ones? i mean the big fuzzy ones the spider shop had. was a beautiful big girl, goldenish sheen (would've been nice to see post moult), but she went to live temporarily with someone and disappeared into the aether, i assume in the rather final way. shame, but she was probably quite old at that size!

thanks for the concepcion tips...if i ever get another, i will do as you say...if they dry out, i think it's too late as i did try to rehumidify the ones i had

[Colin D Wilson]

well i did get one of the large sp ..."northern gold"?

There was a distinct difference between the two seperate imports of (first import) Grammostola sp "northern gold" and (second import) Grammostola sp "north" .... those advertised as Norths were gifted with long setae, where-as the northern golds were just like a small rosea when they first came in

Photo Credit goes to Lee at "The Spider Shop" which was used as reference when they first were imported.

A little while later i noticed the adverts for future imports read as .... Grammostola sp "north" (the Northern Gold) which confused me a little as they were a fair way apart looks wise.
I suppose they just got barreled into the same tub as they came (supposedly) fromt the same region, i does get confusing though

[James Box]

There was a distinct difference between the two seperate imports of (first import) Grammostola sp "northern gold" and (second import) Grammostola sp "north" .... those advertised as Norths were gifted with long setae, where-as the northern golds were just like a small rosea when they first came in

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2745[/ATTACH]Photo Credit goes to Lee at "The Spider Shop" which was used as reference when they first were imported.

A little while later i noticed the adverts for future imports read as .... Grammostola sp "north" (the Northern Gold) which confused me a little as they were a fair way apart looks wise.
I suppose they just got barreled into the same tub as they came (supposedly) fromt the same region, i does get confusing though

it does!
that picture makes me miss that big girl though...she was a good size, and had a great appetite!
you got the small one off me, right? is that the one you bred?

[Judy Perrin]

Ooh, I want one of those fuzzy ones like the one at the bottom left of that photo!

[Colin D Wilson]

you got the small one off me, right? is that the one you bred?

The breeding came from one Elaine bought me as a replacement to the original that unfortunately died just after moulting. Anyone reading this can take a warning from this statement........
"black crickets can keep quiet and hide in an 8x8 inch tub, even after (what i thought) was a thorough check to see if there were any food items in there just before she moulted"

In short .... Black cricket + moulting spider = not good bedfellows

[Colin D Wilson]

Ooh, I want one of those fuzzy ones like the one at the bottom left of that photo!

You and me too, i'm unfortunately lacking on an individual from this particular 1st import.

i'd even appreciate one if it comes from someones freezer ....

[James Box]

i do really wish i still had mine. if i saw another for sale, i doubt i would resist!!!
shame about that small one and the cricket, Colin...it doesn't always happen, but when it does, it's devestating
glad you at least bred them...i may want a brief chat about Grammie breeding at the BTS or whenever, see how much you want to do, as i have spiders you could borrow for these purposes if you need them.

[Grant Brown]

I suddenly feel more confused than before reading this...

I wish people would stop importing things under various names....or....just import them under specific names like:

Grammostola sp."North 24th Jan 2009". At least then it'd be easier to seperate the various imports of what might be different animals or just regional variation.