Announcement

**Peter Roach** · 12-09-11, 06:11 PM

They are in the middle of moving premises so are not taking any new orders until everything is sorted.
If you are on faceboo check out their page, it gives out any updates.

**Lee Furness** · 13-09-11, 07:10 AM

Yeah they're moving premises but Lee had also said on the shops Facebook page that his partner had gone into premature labour and was at a hospital quite a distance away so that was adding to matters. Hope everything goes well for them and I'm sure they'll be back up and running soon enough.

**JensFalk** · 16-09-11, 12:00 PM

I wish people would stop buying from them since they support the WC trade so much.

**Lee Furness** · 16-09-11, 12:11 PM

Probably turn into a heated debate here... While I don't agree with WC and try to buy CB, I can't see the trade in WC stopping completely while it provides revenue (even if not much) to the source and brings fresh bloodlines into the hobby, hopefully for breeding in order to replace thus reducing the amount of WC.

Actually stopping buying from a dealer altogether on the basis of one part of their business is probably just counter-productive, bit like refusing to use the big name supermarkets for food on the grounds that you don't like the slave labour child sweatshops their clothing lines are made in (that was a tongue in cheek comment before it causes a storm!)

**JensFalk** · 16-09-11, 12:47 PM

Hello.
Bringing new bloodlines into the hobby is a nice thought, but the WC traders/smugglers doesnt think that way. The spiders are harvested in huge numbers and often smoked or flushed out of their burrows and then kept in a very bad way. Many of them dies before they get to the petshops where most of them will be treated badly once again. As long as hobbyists buy from petshops who keep WC spiders are actually supporting the WC trade even if they buy pets with a CB label. There is also a risk that WC spiders can be infested with nematodes that can spread and kill your whole collection. Im not here to slap fingers, i just want people to think twice before buying from traders who deals with WC.

Chile have stopped exporting animals but still you can find Grammostola spp. Euathlus spp. in the petshops, strange huh...if they arent smuggled? And no fellow hobbyist can breed and sell slow growing species to petshops with profit. To much work since for an example G. rosea can take up to a year before she lays a sack if the mating was successfull. And after that all the eggs must survive and then all the slings must survive. And if all goes well the breeder must take care for a couple of hundred slings for 4-5 years until they are big enough for the petshop and perhaps be payed 5-10 euros each. No one would do that

Cheers

**Lee Furness** · 16-09-11, 12:54 PM

Perhaps the amount of CB slings available from the dealers is a good indication of a shift then, not defending Lee since I only know of TSS since starting out in the hobby a few months back, but the majority of his stock list seem to be slings?
Unfortunately until there are enough people breeding and rearing spiders to support the dealers, there's always going to be a demand, which in turn will be met somehow when there's money to be made.

**Neill House** · 16-09-11, 01:22 PM

Slings are becoming more common, and this is good to see.. but the amount of WC species also seems to be increasing with this particular peak in the hobby. We all know that not every new hobbyist is going to breed species, and then introduce them to the market.. in fact I would say hardly ever do, and so it must mean there is pressure on the WC populations.. especially for the slow growing species.

**Lee Furness** · 16-09-11, 03:14 PM

Happily admit that I'm far too new to the hobby to have any background to the trends and figures and yes you're quite right about the probability that few new keepers will go on to try breeding (I hope that I eventually become one of the few but have a long way to go and a lot to learn before then).
I don't think there is an answer at this point short of the hobby becoming very limited and restricted in terms of species - which then also knocks onto the chances of people being able to be in a position to breed - it's a tricky catch22.
I do know from being a keen aquarist that I spent years longing for some Botia sidthimunki (chain loaches) but they were either wholly unavailable or when they were extortionate to buy - it's taken a long time but with captive breeding the market is now regularly loaded with them, can only hope the same comes to be with tarantulas.

**Adrian Lightning** · 16-09-11, 06:43 PM

wow look at what I started ha ha
Thanks for the info about TSS I will leave you to carry on with your debate enjoy

**Nicola Dolby** · 17-09-11, 10:20 AM

Can I just add something here to even the balance a little? I know there have been a number of serious issues people have with WC specimens coming into the hobby. Most of us in the hobby are aware of these as we are aware of this vile trade now growing in "trophy" spiders, tatrantulas killed and stuck in glass as ornaments. There is however a point of view that if a few specimens are taken from the wild to breed captive populations, which are then used for the hobby, that is ok. Were it not for this in the first place then there would be no tarantulas in captivity! when the captive bred stock is then established the WC specimens can either be kept by the breeder or sold to someone in the hobby where they will be looked after and cared for.

However, how many WC specimens does it take to produce 500 babies for the tarantula collecting market, desperate for more and more spids, annually. 2? If you are breeding Brachypelmas one might argue 2, or even 4 or 5. If you are talking Eucratoscelus or Therophosa times that by 10. If you are introducing 5 new spoecies which all produce 20 eggs per sack, thats (if my maths is right) 25 sacs just to produce 100 eggs per species. If that is required all in the same year then (if it takes 4-5 WC specimes to guarantee a sack) then thats 100 to 125 wild caught spiders! Per year! And travelling to Brazil, Africa, Thailand etc. isn't cheap. Of course we could cut down on WC specimens bought but the overheads wouldn't fall just to be convenient to the tarantula hobby, so the price of the slings would go through the roof. You can't have it both ways. The reason lee sells WC spiderlings from what I understand is that he would have those he has collected and bred in the hands of a tarantula enthusiast who cares about these beautiful animals when he has no room for them anymore.

We all love tarantulas, and no I do NOT work for the Spider Shop, but I know Lee and he cares every bit as much about these animals as you do. Do you honestly think he would put up with what he has if he didn't? After all his prices are the best in the UK for a business (as opposed to hobbyists selling on forums) so he is hardly "ripping people off", and just ask yourselves if he did walk away from the hobby would anyone coming in put in as much effort as he has? Sorry if this is a bit long winded but it is about time something was said in the lad's defence.

**Jamie Cooper** · 17-09-11, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by nicoladolby View Post

Can I just add something here to even the balance a little? I know there have been a number of serious issues people have with WC specimens coming into the hobby. Most of us in the hobby are aware of these as we are aware of this vile trade now growing in "trophy" spiders, tatrantulas killed and stuck in glass as ornaments. There is however a point of view that if a few specimens are taken from the wild to breed captive populations, which are then used for the hobby, that is ok. Were it not for this in the first place then there would be no tarantulas in captivity! when the captive bred stock is then established the WC specimens can either be kept by the breeder or sold to someone in the hobby where they will be looked after and cared for.

However, how many WC specimens does it take to produce 500 babies for the tarantula collecting market, desperate for more and more spids, annually. 2? If you are breeding Brachypelmas one might argue 2, or even 4 or 5. If you are talking Eucratoscelus or Therophosa times that by 10. If you are introducing 5 new spoecies which all produce 20 eggs per sack, thats (if my maths is right) 25 sacs just to produce 100 eggs per species. If that is required all in the same year then (if it takes 4-5 WC specimes to guarantee a sack) then thats 100 to 125 wild caught spiders! Per year! And travelling to Brazil, Africa, Thailand etc. isn't cheap. Of course we could cut down on WC specimens bought but the overheads wouldn't fall just to be convenient to the tarantula hobby, so the price of the slings would go through the roof. You can't have it both ways. The reason lee sells WC spiderlings from what I understand is that he would have those he has collected and bred in the hands of a tarantula enthusiast who cares about these beautiful animals when he has no room for them anymore.

We all love tarantulas, and no I do NOT work for the Spider Shop, but I know Lee and he cares every bit as much about these animals as you do. Do you honestly think he would put up with what he has if he didn't? After all his prices are the best in the UK for a business (as opposed to hobbyists selling on forums) so he is hardly "ripping people off", and just ask yourselves if he did walk away from the hobby would anyone coming in put in as much effort as he has? Sorry if this is a bit long winded but it is about time something was said in the lad's defence.

Very good post Nicola. I couldn't agree more.

All tarantulas in captivity are the product of WC specimens somewhere down the line. Although it does sadden me to hear how they may be treated and forced from their burrows, I believe it is necessary for the future of this hobby.

Jamie

**JensFalk** · 17-09-11, 12:06 PM

Jamie: In the future some species might be extinct in and the WC trade will be one reason for it. Some countries may also forbidd exports just like Chile did. There are enough species in the hobby to breed and supply ourselves today. If you agree with wc, you would also think it would be ok to take, lions, elephants, bears, birds from the wild?

The wc trade, when it comes to theraphosids would be ok for me in small numbers but that is not how it works today at all. And most popular species can be bought as CB from Europe without any problems at all, so there is no need for supporting the shops that one might help ruin the hobby for us all.
Wasnt that guy Lee cought in Brazil trying to smuggle 900 species of theraphosids?

**Jamie Cooper** · 17-09-11, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by JensFalk View Post

Jamie: In the future some species might be extinct in and the WC trade will be one reason for it. Some countries may also forbidd exports just like Chile did. There are enough species in the hobby to breed and supply ourselves today. If you agree with wc, you would also think it would be ok to take, lions, elephants, bears, birds from the wild?

The wc trade, when it comes to theraphosids would be ok for me in small numbers but that is not how it works today at all. And most popular species can be bought as CB from Europe without any problems at all, so there is no need for supporting the shops that one might help ruin the hobby for us all.
Wasnt that guy Lee cought in Brazil trying to smuggle 900 species of theraphosids?

No, actually I don't agree with taking lions, elephants, etc from the wild. Don't put words in my mouth Jens.

I actually said that it saddened me to hear how WC tarantulas are forced from their burrows and treated. But I do think it is necessary if we are to have tarantulas in Captivity today. All your enclosures and mine would be empty right now if we hadn't. I actually think that tarantulas raised in captivity have a better life than those in the wild if kept properly.

As far as I'm aware, Lee's flight was diverted and landed in a country where he didn't have the correct paperwork. Hardly his fault. He actually did nothing wrong. And I don't think that that should be discussed here.

I gave my opinion. I don't want to get involved in a debate. If you don't want to buy from The Spider Shop, then don't. Don't drag their name through the mud on an internet forum, especially when you don't have your facts right.

Jamie

**Neill House** · 17-09-11, 03:55 PM

Well wait a second.. the facts are, as I have read here, correct, are they not? We are members of the hobby, and as members of the BTS it is our right, no our duty, to freely discuss things that affect our hobby. If that mean criticising a friend, then so be it.. we are a small community, and so all of us will be criticised at one time or another.
What I can't, and won't, be party to is the idea of some 'holy untouchable' in our community. There isn't one, and EVERYONE that is a member has a duty to understand the mechanics and sectors that make up the many facets.

The fact of the matter is that people sell WC specimens. We also understand that constant exploitation of WC stocks is not good, and will eventually reach a tipping point of no return. Singly me buying one specimen isn't going to mean much, but collectively it all adds up.
I'm not a business, and am old enough to remember when we had to save for a long time for that one m/f tarantula, to try and breed. That was the hobby. The more we learned, the me we shared. Now anyone can pick up a book and declare themselves an expert.. but that should not be what we, as a Society, are about. We should be above the petty business squabbles, and be able to debate any and all topics that comer before us.

(Sorry, that was a bit of a long winded post, I'm at a football match (in which we lost) and trying to keep my line of thought clear

)

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What's happened to the spider shop?

What's happened to the spider shop?

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