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**Graeme Wright** · 05-10-05, 06:20 AM

Re: The AES show

Originally posted by karl

I was at the AES show and franky I was disgusted at what I saw.

I saw table after table of dead beasties, mounted for inspection or hanging on a wall.

There were many tables there providing equipment for killing and preserving insects, all for the hobbyist.

Apart from the BTS table, and maybe two others, the actual PROMOTION of keeping beasties didn't exist.

I have to wonder why the BTS actively promoted this show. This was a show for dead things, perfectly preserved and ready to hang on your wall. There were people selling Atals moth coccoons by the bucket-load ... captive bred, do you think?

If any of you guys left your table and looked around ... can you honestly say that this was a show you were proud to be part of?

That show was nothing to do with the preservation of species, it was a collectors' frenzy. I got the distinct impression that they were just looking, NOT participating.

Having seen what the whole thing was about I will personally be disgusted if the BTS advertises the next AES show.

The last BTS show was wonderful, the AES show was rape.

I don't know why your trying to bad mouth the bts over the AES show espesially because people were selling dryed bugs.

There is allways people selling dryed bugs at the shows even some at the bts show.

You can't have a go at the BTS for what people choose to sell and on top of that selling dryed insects in mounted frames is not ilegal so just what exactly can the bts so about it?

and no one says you have to buy the insects but remember some people have to make a living.

**karl** · 05-10-05, 03:30 PM

Was I bad mouthing the BTS?

The AES show seemed to me to be about everything that the BTS isn't. That's why I brought it up here.

You're right, people do have to make a living, but that fact doesn't make it ok to sell table after table of wild caught dead bugs.

If you would like to get off the defensive for a moment, don't you think it's a legitimate question to ask if the BTS should be actively supporting these kind of events?

There were a heck of a lot of dead wild caught spiders there too, do you think that's a good thing?

**Ray Hale** · 05-10-05, 07:42 PM

Ok, lets answer the charges against us.

The AES is one of the oldest societies in the World and the keeping of "dead beasties" has been around since the 1800's. Im not saying that is necessarily right but it is a fact. The AES Exhibition has been running for many years and the butterfly hobby is massive. Having visited the far east I can tell you that many insects are captive farmed for export. Again it may not be right in your eyes but to an impoverished Malay it's proceeds puts food on the table.

Its not for me to pass comment on the AES Exhibition or its rules and regulations. Wayne and his crew work hard to provide their members with a show that meets their needs. Why does the BTS trade at this show? Well, we are a self funded society that relies on subscriptions form its membership to exist. The internet has played a major part in recruitment but I am a firm believer that meeting face to face is the best way to gain members. Since the demise of the reptile shows socities like ours have found it very hard to survive.
Secondly we have traded at the AES for nigh on twenty years and in that time we have recieved one complaint. If we didnt trade there we would be accused of being aloof and not trying to meet our own members needs. Damned if we do damned if we don't.
Thirdly, the AES is attended by a number of live traders who also trade at our exhibition. Did you buy anything from them Karl? if so that would be hypocritical would it not. We use the AES as a starting point to attract vistors to our exhibition. We gave out over 300 leaflets advertising our event. Again where do you think our vistors come from? The BTS Exhibition and the AES Show are indeed miles apart in terms of merchandise sold but closer than you think in clientel.
Fourthly , many of the "old school" of entomology consider it an afront that the AES allows live traders in to its show. On Saturday I myself heard two academic types complaining that " people like us" shouldnt be allowed in.
In a piece in the Telegraph on Saturday we were described as " scary tatooed types who arrived on motorbikes". Peoples perception differ. To the general populus keeping a live tarantula in a box is downright weird despite it probably being bigger than its burrow would be in the wild.

Forgive my rambling but this as hit a nerve. Myself and the other committee members work hard to run the BTS and we have travelled, at our own expense I would add, all over England supporting other clubs and shows. The BTS will continue to exhibit at the AES show. If this offends I am sorry but the BTS has been part of our lives for twenty years and we will defend it.

Ray and Angela Hale

**Graeme Wright** · 05-10-05, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by karl

Was I bad mouthing the BTS?

Well saying that you would be “disgusted with the BTS” kind of says yes to that question

I think Ray has answered most of your questions there.

And as Ray said the committee put allot of effort into these shows and events so them and dedicated bts members don’t like to see negativity towards the bts.

The BTS try there best to make this hobby good for us all.

**Mark Pennell** · 05-10-05, 09:10 PM

Ray
Many thanks for replying to Karl’s questions and his obvious disheartenment at the AES show. Ray I have wanted to reply to this all day but work, and other commitments have kept me from replying until know.

However you basically said what I was going to say so I will not go over the raised points again as you covered them quiet nicely.

Karl I hope Ray has explained things for you. Yes in an ideal world we would all like not to see such collections of dead things but as Ray mentions most of these are farmed commercially. Those Atlas moths for one, were farmed unless the tree they were harvested from also grew red rubber bands; if you looked closely enough they were originally on branches and the cocoons were held on there by these rubber bands a sure sign of commercial breeding.

GW I understand what you are saying and I commend you for this.

Regards
Mark

**Graeme Wright** · 05-10-05, 09:25 PM

Cheers Mark

I can also hardy see how the BTS can have the finger ponited at them for what other people choose to sell on there stalls.

**karl** · 05-10-05, 09:47 PM

I'll deal with your final comment first as you and Mr. Wright seem to have both taken this post as a direct attack on the BTS ...

"Forgive my rambling but this as hit a nerve. Myself and the other committee members work hard to run the BTS and we have travelled, at our own expense I would add, all over England supporting other clubs and shows. The BTS will continue to exhibit at the AES show. If this offends I am sorry but the BTS has been part of our lives for twenty years and we will defend it."

I'm not commenting on the BTS, your commitment, or the work that you put into making the BTS what it is. I have more than enough respect for what you do. I posted this because the AES show was all about dead bugs.

Your first point ... completely understood and accepted.

Second point ... regarded as being aloof by whom? The people that sell dead bugs and whine about you being at their show? If you really want to encourage captive breeding and preservation of wild populations of spiders is the AES show really the best place to be seen?

Third point ... I bought eight spiders, all of them live (although one is currently in an ICU). This may come as a shock to you but it's not easy to find people selling spiders where you can walk up and take a look at them, I took full advantage of the fact I was at the show. Having spent three hours driving there on the strength of the BTS advertising the AES show I think I'm entitled to. Hypocrite? I would be a hypocrite if I came away with a few mounted dead beasties, I didn't.

Fourth point ... Isn't that what I'm ranting about? It seems to me that these people want dead things in frames, is that not the case? If you are looking to make change from within then that's a fair point, but it's not going to happen, is it.

Allow me to state my point because it seems to have been lost in the translation to text ... I'm not attacking the BTS, I love the BTS ... The AES show was a meeting place for people who collect dead bugs by the frame-load. The BTS is all about the preservation and captive breeding of LIVE spiders.

I can see some kind of divide there. If you think that representing the BTS at such shows is good for the hobby then I bow to that, it's your call.

Had I known exactly what the AES show was all about I wouldn't have given it the time of day.

From your tone, Ray, it seems that you are not entirely happy with the AES show, but I'm getting it in the neck for attacking the BTS?

I'm questioning the BTS being at the AES show, nothing more.

**Mark Pennell** · 05-10-05, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by karl

I'm questioning the BTS being at the AES show, nothing more.

Karl
I can see where you are coming from and in a way I do agree, but what about this:

Scenario 1
Man comes to AES show to look for the latest in dead things. Man sees BTS stand, man thinks hmmm what this is! People keeping things live, how very strange but interesting!

Man approaches BTS stand gets chatting, then wonders off looking around the show. Hmm more live things - now he thinks I might give this go. Purchases said live spider, returns to the BTS stand, asks a great deal of questions about how to keep it etc. The BTS answer these questions man goes off with his new pet.

Now, as you know this hobby is addictive and after a while this guys thinks I would like a few more, comes to the BTS expo. Meets others, gets chatting and goes home with a few captive bred tarantulas.

Joins the BTS reads the journal, reads the web sites, next thing, just maybe his attitude to the frames of dead things start to change and along with this perhaps a growing understanding for conservation and wildlife protection.

Scenario 2
Man arrives at the AES, the BTS are not there so does not talk to us, goes home with a shed load of new dead things, he his happy but none the wiser.... and nothing changes.

As the AES show is one of only a few shows that exists anymore we will continue to have a stand there and maybe just maybe the above scenarios are true and we will have made a difference. Just making this difference to one persons attitude would have made my 2.5 hour drive and standing at the BTS table from 11 til 5 then driving all the way back again worth all the effort.

So OK we get the point you were not aware that the AES show had preserved insects for sale, and you were a bit shocked. I will say this though when we post up next years advert about this show, I will include a warning that this exhibition has dead insects and butterflies for sale and if you’re easily offended by this it would be best not to attend.

I hope you are happy with what you have bought, and I do hope that the sick one recovers nicely, I am sure you will do you best to see that it does.

It might have been an idea to have talked to us at the BTS tables and voice your opinions there. Ray and I might look like ogres but we’re not and you might just have been pleasantly surprised in just how much time and interest we would have taking in your views on the day. Posting in the way you did, did create a knee jerk defensive response, we are, and I am very proud of this society and the work we are doing.

Regards
Mark

**karl** · 05-10-05, 10:48 PM

Mark,

You're such a bloodly optimist, and I have to admire that

For me, the whole thing was wrong. I would not have given it my cash had I known what it was all about. I would have spent my time and money on live beasties via the BTS board.

I totally understand your commitment, and the commitment of others that make these shows happen. I understand the need for 'us' to be present, but I am inclined to vote with my feet.

I think that (in terms of the AES show) you are preaching to the converted, and your time would be spent better perhaps making the BTS bi-annual or extending the lectures to include a 'bring and buy' ... you can fit a lot of spiders into a coat with big pockets.

As long these people get numbers through the door they will continue. I won't be on the list for the next one.

**Ray Hale** · 06-10-05, 07:16 AM

I agree with Mark and we will on advertising the AES Show explain what is on sale. The choice is then up to the individual if they attend. In fairness I believe that had you voiced your didmay to the Organiser of the event,Wayne Jarvis, on the day he would have more than happily refunded your entrance fee. I know I would at the BTS. Ok it wasnt what you expected and that is a fair comment. ( I have passed your comments to Wayne and he may repond privatley)
I would ask why you did not speak to us at the show as we love to talk to people. Admittedly I am a bit scary, hence my nickname,but Angela is always willing to talk spiders.

With regard to us " better spending our time" in making the BTS Exhibition twice a year. I start organising the next exhibition the day after the event.
I visit the site at least four time during the year and throughtout the twelve months send out application forms, meet with beaurocrats etc.etc.
In short doing two a year would kill me. Particularly when you bear in mind that we rely on volunteers to help us set up. The first couple of shows might work but not every one is as committed ( or insane!) as us.

The BTS is and will remain an annual event. This offers the member a better array of spiders and by splitting it some would choose to visit only one thus severly denting the societies income. ( The school aint cheap!)

The idea of a "bring and buy " at the lectures was discussed at Committee and rejected.
The BTS lectures were set up to encourage and promote the amature arachnologist to take a step into research, taxonomy ect. Turning it into what is basically a car boot would defeat the object. To us the BTS is not simply about buying spiders and amassing hugh colections ( been there done it) but passing our accumaulated knowledge and expertise to others who follow ( we are not getting any younger). At the end of the day this is Marks baby and any propsal put forward will be discussed. I shall take your suggestions on board and place them on the agenda for our next meeting.

I hope you will continue to support us as we will continue to support you, wether you are a member or not.

Ray Hale

**Phil Messenger** · 06-10-05, 04:38 PM

Hi some very good points already made by all above, here are my thoughts. Firstly I would agree with Karl that it's a sad affair seeing dead bugs being traded on almost every other table, but that said, it's an older hobby than ours and will continue what ever protest occurs

There are as many if not more people opposed to our hobby of keeping live inverts than to those that keep dead pinned insects

I do not believe the BTS attending the AES is in any way promoting or endorsing their hobby of trading dead insects, my view is, the AES attracts live invert traders which in turn attracts invert hobbyists, some of which will be BTS members and some not, it is for this reason in my opinion the BTS should be represented at the AES, it's an opportunity for members to renew their membership, meet some of the BTS committee and the committee to meet members and attract new members which can only strengthen the society.

**karl** · 06-10-05, 11:50 PM

Firstly, thanks to you all for addressing my original point, although it took a while for it to be accepted as a point and not as an attack on the BTS.

Secondly, I accept that the BTS needs to be represented at every available opportunity, and I understand why this is the case.

Thirdly ... since I have been presented with imaginary scenarios, allow me to present one of my own ...

Man comes to the AES show to look at dead things. Man sees the BTS stand, on the next table he sees tray after tray of dead spiders. Man thinks that's not a problem. Man walks away thinking the BTS is ok with that.

karl

**Ray Hale** · 07-10-05, 10:44 AM

Unfortunaltly Karl, as I have said, the hobby of keeping dead insects has been around a long time and will still be here when we have gone. Again I accept that you did not expect to see such things and if I had been offended by it I would have complanied on the day to those that orgnaise the show. I would therfore suggest that you post your complaint on the AES Forum for they are more quailfied than I to justify their hobby.
I would also ask my original question again. Why did you not speak to me or Angela on the day?

Many of our members are also AES members and again I am sure they are more able than I to defend their Show. Personally I dont keep dead insects, not because of a moral issue but simply becuse to me it holds no interest. To many it does.
At the end of the day we all have our own opinions and as a Committee we are more than willing to consider any complaint. Feedback , good or bad is what democracy is all about.

**karl** · 08-10-05, 12:03 AM

Ray,

For me to lodge a complaint to the organisers of the AES show would be foolish. It's their show, their hobby, and as has already been pointed out, it's not illegal.

While I don't find the hobby of collecting dead bugs to be to my taste I respect the right of people to do so. I'm not asking for the AES to justify themselves or to defend their hobby.

Maybe I failed to state the reason I brought this up with any kind of clarity. I'm questioning the BTS's participation in this show, as well as the active promotion of it. I'm doing that for the reason that the AES show seemed to me to be all about collecting dead bugs, can you honestly tell me that's not the case?

Knowing what I do of the BTS that didn't seem to fit, so I asked why the BTS was there.

Once the dust settled many valid points were brought up. If you guys think that promotion of this hobby at such events will give a long-term benefit then I bow to your judgement and I commend your energy and determination.

I have to say that looking from the outside in, it seems to me like a wildlife park setting up a stall at a taxidermy show.

Why didn't I approach you about this? I came to the stall, renewed my membership (one that lapsed in 2000, it's been a busy few years), and went on my merry way. It was only after I had done a complete tour of the show that I realised what the whole thing was about. To be honest I'm glad I didn't mention it at the time, a discussion such as this is best carried out in public where interested parties can join in the discussion. Saying that, I'm perfectly aware that so far it's only myself and the upper echelons of the BTS that have added anything to the comment.

Thanks for taking the time to address this for me. I understand where you are coming from, I hope it's the same for you.

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