Pokie group rearing ................warning

[Ray Gabriel]

OK where do i start?

many people are now keeping pokes in groups, and as this is quite a new practise it is not quite known what happens when they get older.

here are a couple of my observations, should might be a BTS article but the information needs to get out to peopel sooner.

Ina group of 4 P. formosa i noticed for a couple of weeks that one specimen was staying away from the "group".

i then noticed that she had been half eaten.

I have just checked my group of 12 (was 12) regalis to find 2 freshley moulted specimens dead. I have not checked for bite marks yet but owing to the fact that all were well fed and "seemed to be ok together", i have decided to split this group up tommorow. The 2 dead ones had just moulted to the same size as the 1st largest specimen (well the 1st was a mature male so the second)

both groups were 5-6th moult, on of the "female formosa" matured into a male the next moult.

Rather than start to loose specimens due to cannibalism i think it might be safest to split groups (or make smaller groups ) around moult 5.

I cannot say for definite that cannibalism or hierachy killing or anything like that but rather than peopel to loose specimens for the lack of knowledge (which we are just finding out).

I cannot keep striata together but other people can, so maybe these observations are only in "my spider room", but in case people would rather be safe than sorry i will leave it up to those individuals to do as they see fit.

If anyone keeps there specimens together can you please let me know for the pokie book (no i dont know when it wil be finished LOL )

Ray

P.S. If anyone from other countries are reading this can you please copy and translate for the people who cannot read English, thank you.

[Uwe Neis]

Hi!

P.S. If anyone from other countries are reading this can you please copy and translate for the people who cannot read English, thank you.

Maybe not the best translation for I don't have too much sparetime, but here we go with German:

• ________________________________________
  Ok, wo fange ich an … ?
  
  Viele Leute halten Poezzis in Gruppen und da es sich hierbei um eine recht neue Praxis handelt, ist nicht viel darüber bekannt, was passiert, wenn die Tiere aelter, bzw. adult werden.
  
  Es folgen einige meiner Beobachtungen, die auch via BTS veroeffentlicht werden (sollen), aber es ist notwendig, dass die Informationen euch jetzt schon erreichen.
  
  In einer Gruppe von 4 Poecilotheria formosa bemerkte ich ueber einen Zeitraum von mehreren Wochen ein Tier, dass der Gruppe fernblieb.
  
  Ich stellte dann fest, dass es halb gefressen worden war.
  
  Ich habe daraufhin meine 12er-Gruppe (es waren 12) regalis kontrolliert und 2 frisch gehaeutete Tiere tot vorgefunden. Ich habe (noch) keine Untersuchung auf Spuren von Bissen getaetigt, aber in Anbetracht der Tatsache, dass alle Tiere gut im Futter standen und scheinbar „gut zusammenlebten“, beschlossen, diese Gruppe morgen zu trennen. Die zwei verstorbenen Tiere hatten nach der Haeutung die selbe Groesse, wie das groesste Tier der Gruppe ( - das erste Tier war ein geschlechtsreifer Bock, ebenso das zweite).
  
  Beide Gruppen befanden sich in der fuenften/sechsten FH, eine der „weiblichen formosa“ entpuppte sich nach ihrer Haeutung als adulter Bock.
  
  Ehe Tiere durch Kannibalismus verloren gehen, denke ich, es koennte sicherer sein, Gruppen ab der fuenften FH zu trennen (oder in kleinere Gruppen aufzuteilen).
  
  Ich vermag nicht definitiv zu sagen, ob es sich um Kannibalismus oder Rangkaempfe oder aehnliches handelt, wollte es aber kundtun ehe Tiere aus Mangel an Wissen (, welches wir gerade erst ansammeln, ) verloren gehen.
  
  Ich kann Poecilotheria striata nicht zusammenhalten, waehrend es bei anderen funktioniert, daher sind diese Feststellungen und Beobachtungen ggf. auf „mein Spinnenzimmer“ beschraenkt. Aber – für den Fall der Faelle – ist Vorsicht die Mutter der Porzellankiste, obwohl die Entscheidung letztlich dem Einzelnen obliegt.
  
  Falls jemand die (genannten) Arten zusammenhaelt, lasst es mich bitte fuer das Poecilotheria-Buch wissen (nein, ich weiß nicht, wann es fertig wird *lol*)
  
  Ray
  
  P.S. Wenn jemand aus anderssprachigen Laendern dies liest, bitte kopiert den Text und uebersetzt ihn für diejenigen, die kein Englisch sprechen. Danke!
  ________________________________________

Regards
Uwe

[Ray Hale]

Hi ray

We have a group of 10 P.regalis and have noticed that the growth rate is different in the specimans. One (female) has grown at an alarming rate and is at least 5 inces across whilst others remain quite small( 2/3 inches). Although I have not noticed aggression I have observed a definite heirachy. the larger spider seems to have taken over one corner whilst the remaining smaller specimens group elsewhere. My tank is a double fronted Custom Aquaria and is 24' x 18' x 18'. Interesting observations though Ray. I will keep a close eye on my colonies.

Ray

[Layla McInnes]

Our largest of our 7 in the regalis colony is also female and 4". The smallest is about 1". Although she has a tendancy to steal food from them ( we feed them again shortly after she doesnt bother em then) there has been no other altercations with them. They often sit with their feet touching and the smallest doesnt shy away. They are still in a small custom aquaria arboreal tank.

Our formosa have seperated into 2 groups and always have been. We moved them to the large exo terra 18x18x24 in June and are all growing at the same rate. There is a pair that live about 6" away from the main group of 4. All we know is that in the group of 4 the very slightly largest one is male(moulted today).

[Boris Striffler]

Hi Ray,

it is the same what I observed with all my Poecilotheria groups:
the biggest is always a female and the second largest as well.
Normally it is only No.3, which is the "fast growing" male. So no worry about males getting adult earlier than females from the same eggsac.

Cheers,
Boris

[kavka]

Same think is with my P fomosa. 7 in a group, one larger female. 3 spiders are moving across the tararium all the time (at one time in one hole, next day another hole...). Even the largest female tolerates other when they move in with her.
Gorazd

[Ian]

At the moment I am trying to keep any canabalism to a minimum in my large regalis group by adding more hiding places. Theuy seem to be taking to the new residences quite well. I am hoping it delays any teritorial behaviour.

[Matt Davies]

Hi all great thread! I know its old but thought Id bring it forward instead of starting new topic!
Im returning to the hobby after a 5 year or so hiatus. My first purchase has been a group of 6 P. Regalis slings which should land tomorrow. Now where I am confused is the post above and the A.T.S suggest providing plenty of hides to prevent cannabalism while most in UK and the B.T.S suggest a small enclosure and just one hide place which will prevent territorialism and encourage a fully integrated colony. Im leaning towards the latter explanation but am open to suggestions that and any further advice will be appreciated. seeing as the last post was made in 2005 maybe their are some new developments Im unaware of ?

Cheers

[Peter Lacey]

I've kept lots of pokie communities and if you are acceptant of the occasional loss you should find a stronger group than those kept individually.
In my opinion providing individual hides merely suggests you are trying to get the pokies to cohabitate rather than live communally and the loss of contact would probably explain the loss of individuals. My most painful experience of this came when I separated a community of 15 x P. rufilata for 8 weeks. When I put them back together it seemed as if the removed group created their own hide by burrowing. There were definitely 2 different groups, one lot living in the substrate whilst the other group lived in the cork tube provided from the start.

Eventually the community reduced down to 9, and I suspect the 9 were the ones that were left in the tub with the cork tube.
Within a community it seems there are contact traits, almost of reassurance. There are also times when they share food and seem to protect those moulting.
In the wild they are found communally, and Peter Kirk reports various generations of P. pederseni found together. The reason for this might be attributed to retaining levels of humidity but obviously the food source must have been high.

So, considering my experience of regalis, striata, ornata, pederseni, miranda, subfusca, formosa, rufilata. I'd create an enclosure that's fairly small and restricts them to one hide. Numbers of 4 seem to do very well but Ive kept communities of over 20 before. A good few inches of substrate and a cork tube or similar. Feed more crickets than there are individuals. Watch for any that separate for any length of time. Remove mature males but on maturity you need to consider dismantling the community. Ive had adult females living together without issue but I find this a bit too much of a risk especially if you intend breeding them in the same enclosure.

[Grant Brown]

All seems a bit forced don't you think?

I mean, it's not that uncommon that spiders co-habit for various lengths of time but most eventually move on and disperse. Igni Agnarsson did some work on communal spiders (as did others) and to quote his paper title, it seems a bit of an "evolutionary dead end". It seems they are only communal under stressful environmental conditions, and even then I wonder how long it persists.

OK, these were true spiders of various families, but I don't think it is too much of a stretch to look at an arachnid wide view of communal behaviour and expect that tarantula would not be the one exceptional genus/family etc. The pattern fits reasonably well - out of a speciose group, only a small % of species from a small % of "odd" genera exhibit any signs of communal behaviour. I don't know enough about wild pokies to say much, but I wonder if it is a stress response like in other spiders?

If that is the case, surely for pets the idea of stimulating stressful conditions to make them co-habit is a little abhorrent?

[Peter Lacey]

Surely if it were stressful the signs would be negative in comparison to those kept individually, whereas in my experience the opposite is true.

Stegodyphus sarasinorum make an excellent example of social spiders.

Ive also kept P. murinus (mixed sacs), P. cambridgei, P. irminia and Im trying again A. versicolor. Others have had great success with H. incei and H. villosella, and again M. balfouri, plus there's the obvious chicken spider.

[Grant Brown]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you mentioned that the communes eventually needed separating out?

I think the pattern holds true - a few species at most from several disparate genera within tarantulas. Stegadophys is pretty much same pattern within the eresiidae - quite a few species in that family and not all that many % social (although they one of the families with a tendency towards higher rates of social behaviour).

I'm not against it for experiments sake, and curious as to hear more of wild situation - just wonder if it is another situation where we've assumed something that can be manipulated into commonness but is "naturally incorrect" (I mean, not wrong from a moral stance but, whilst inducible by us, is not normal in wild populations).

[Matt Davies]

Thanks for the responses I find this topic fascinating and can see both sides of the argument. Personally Im a hands on type of person and while I value being able to learn from the experiances of others I like to see the results for my self.

Even after such a short amount of time I can see the group dynamic of my x6 p regalis slings. I have them housed in a small sweet jar with one cork bark tube which I have stuffed with a small plastic plant to increase the feeling of security.

my group seems to consist of a close knit colony of 5 specimens who inhabit the cork bark tube and one slightly larger lone sling who spends his time on the periphery. Im very exited to see if this dynamic changes devolops over time !

I have witnessed one act which I believe shows that this group is a fully functioning colony...
I have made sure a constant supply of micro crickets are available at all times, along with this I offer pre killed larger crickets. I recently observed one of the spiderlings venture down to the enclosure floor pick up a pre killed cricket struggle to ascend the cork bark tube for around 30 minutes before bringing it back to the group where all fed together at the same time. Around four hours later I witnessed a differant spiderling remove the dehydrated cricket from the communal living area and web it to the outside of the cork bark.

I must confess observing this group in the early hours of the morning fills me with the same excitement I got from observing my first T a Haitian brown 15 years ago

I have officially got the T bug back and am awaiting x4 H.Gigas slings which I am also planning on keeping communally

Cheers
Matt

[Peter Lacey]

They don't "need" to, its just I chose to. Ive had several groups of mature males/females. Some I left together without issue. But upon breeding I chose to separate them. The risk of a sling I can cope with, but the risk of losing an adult female isnt as palatable

Changing the heirachy of the community definitely has an affect, so if I remove several Ive now learned that splitting the lot is a good idea. But, Ive also had 2 adult females in a large (30x30x60) glass enclosure. They were together since slings and this project went against all my recommendations in that it was busy, large and allowed them to create individual territories (when in the large enclosure). I then introduced a mature male and he remained in there for at least 8 months! During this time I often found all 3 together, but unfortunately there wasnt any success from the breeding.