Ebay

[David Paylor]

Same here.

I originally bought a spider to cure myself of arachniphobia, and it's worked. I didn't want to pass on a stupid and irrational fear to my (6) kids.

Having resposibilty for a tropical animal, with the care and so on that is involved, has allowed me to actually come to like the little buggers: all of them. I now pick up spiders out of the bath and liberate them, and I have set up a sanctuary for garden spiders in my greenhouse, so more of them survive the Winter. (I also have a choice garden spider set up in a sweety jar full of black bamboo stems in my conservatory, and s/he runs on greenfly and so on. Great fun, and very happy.)

All thanks to J.

[Radosław Peliński]

Hi :]


I agree with opinion presented by Chris Sainsbury and others that do not see anything wrong with selling Ts at E auction services like E buy
and I feel a little bit mad on those who can not understand that look ( or it is against their business )

J M Clegg - sell them !! You are right in what You are doing !


************************************************** **

We as BTS members poses destination , it is promote and encourage the responsible husbandry, research , captive breeding, conservation and general knowledge of theraphosids scorpions and associated fauna !!!!!!!!

are we going this way preventing our hobby to spread ? baning people that care for Ts, sell them and inform buyers about their new responsibilities ? NO !




You are trying for knowledge of people who buys those animals ?
then as a community we should force E buy to put rules that will prevent this ---> in auction description need to be full " manual" how to take care for species

it is really not so hard and BTS could work with E buy to provide good and T- friendly service --- WE REALY CAN DO IT

You wont to prevent spiders being sold as live food , try to talk with E buy bout this rules , If we will show them that it s nothing wrong in sending spiders , and it will give them extra profit , they will allow on this and they will do special category for Us !! we will be able to promote our hobby in BIGGG part of Internet and BTS will grow !! as we will be able to promote BTS there as well !




********************

In Poland we have our local E auction serwis called allegro
2 or 3 Years back we also had lot of discussions about selling spiders on it !
our "old" importers/sellers wear against it as it was reducing their profits - simply they wear loosing monopoly on spiders ! also it lower the prices vary much - for them it was bad as they lost some money but for the hobby , noobs and dot this what is primary objective of the BTS it was GREATE !!! when price dropped it was no longer so profitable importing spiders , CB are starting to win with WC or imported CB , also it make much more common to the people --> many of them would never know anything bout T's if they would found advert on E auction while they wear searching for new MP3 player or something


we shouldn argue if it is good or bad to sell spiders on E buy but we should start to act and help our hobby to hit the charts of E BUY !!


sorry for this mess my English is to pour for such utterance .
I just wonted to tell my opinion that we are missing the point in this discussion

[Adam Smith]

But the problem with ebay is it will increase the number of impulse buyers who rush into buying an exotic pet without scoping it first and learning about their needs. We have seen far too many examples of reptiles been treated badly by owners who bought on impulse and as bad as that is dont want it getting into the theraphosid area. There are so many places on the internet to buy slings and tarantuals that there is no need to scour through ebay to find it, whats the point when BTS do such a great job of communally gathering like minded people and expands there such as exhibitions which are open to both members and public. There is publicilty already, there are many books and pet shops that sell spiders and if someone really wants to get into the hobby as far as im concerned they should go about how everyone did. I spent years gathering books on tarantulas, scorpions, lizards, snakes and frogs before I even had my first tarantula then signed up with BTS and have continued to grow and bearing in mind when i started there wasnt as much availability on the internet and spiders werent as cheap. I paid 60 euro or just under for a sling A brockelhursti from the pet shop in Dublin whilst in ireland and has since been more accessible, to find any pokie or bird eater or any decent selection of spiders in Dublin was hard to come by exluding all the muck at the time on the market with wild caughts.
I have no problem promoting the hobby and the husbandry of tarantulas and agree with it but find there are so many other ways, public advertise by making flyers. try and organise an exhibition at art centre showing your collection or if could swing it give a lecture to animal science university students. The list is endless butI fear that ebay will creat more (not saying that anyone who has bought a tarantula on ebay nad everyone is the same) wanabee enthusiasts and more people jumping to buy a spider without the proper know how, and yes there may be a lot of care sheets available but i dont think is enough to simply buy a spider and read a small sheet of paper with a small synopsis on it. This isnt enough info and only covers a small % of just how much is involved and evolved in the hobby over the years. I am gettnig fed up reading about these ebay discussions, it happened has happened and prob will still happenn but let sleeping dogs lay.

[Radosław Peliński]

**********But the problem with ebay is it will increase the number of impulse buyers who rush into buying an exotic pet without scoping it first and learning about their needs **************

no it dont there is more rush buyers on events like Ham stock market

there will be the same % of rush buyers as there is at the moment , but it will be easier to control that , as data about who and from who bought spider will be available for few years the only difference is that that now You dont know how may slings and to who I have sold my slings this Year and If I would sell them on E buy You would be able to check it , and after longer term it would be easier to track people who are selling hybrids ,

now any one can sell 1000 B albopilosum * vagans almost without noticing that event , and If someone would do this on E buy he would be easy tracked in future and it would be able to inform the rest of his buyers that they probably bean cheated !


***************There are so many places on the Internet to buy slings and tarantulas that there is no need to scour through ebay to find it, ************


Your right but let the people make their own decision if they wont to or dont wont to sell / buy Ts on E buy . we as a community should intervene in a dispute sell or not too sell but we should help e buy to keep it clear and safe by creating good rules end encouraging people who decide too sell their spiders on E buy to give good descriptions and inform buyer about everything that he need to take care after spider

[J M Clegg]

I think some of you may find this historical thread quite interesting. Sometimes you have to look into the past to solve the problems of tomorrow. I think some of the “new” contributors to this forum could do with understanding this principle!!

I am no longer involved in the venom yield research for P.Regalis for use in the coronary care fields. I am no longer selling spiders either. I have a handful of specimens in my spider house but these are kept for my personal enjoyment.

[Craig Mackay]

I think some of you may find this historical thread quite interesting. Sometimes you have to look into the past to solve the problems of tomorrow. I think some of the “new” contributors to this forum could do with understanding this principle!!

What you say is very true, however, there's no need to sound so condescending to newer members. We all have to start somewhere. Unfortunately, it's just not practical to trawl through old threads to find out if what your about to say has been said before. Anyway, new versions of threads will often throw up new ideas. Just because something has been discussed before doesn't mean it should be the end of the topic. If that was the case how would new ideas evolve? It's unfortunate for yourself that you had a negative experience with people reporting your ads but I'm afraid there are no right or wrong answers here, just differences in opinion.

[Chris Sainsbury]

It's unfortunate for yourself that you had a negative experience with people reporting your ads but I'm afraid there are no right or wrong answers here, just differences in opinion.

Yep there is no right or wrong answer but to hell with it, my opinion is different so sod the ebay seller, lets report him and cock his little game up and effect their lifes anyway.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Sainsbury]

Just out of interest those that complain about the sale of tarantulas on ebay for whatever reasons they can think off, do you also complain to the sellers about items like this:-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tarantula-Spon...1%7C240%3A1318

Probably the biggest waste of money in terms of things for spiders, and likely to cause more problems than it solves. Yet still they are made and sold on probably quite a large scale within the hobby.
Seriously why not use that good keyboard time on complaining about something worth while.....just an idea off course.
Cheers
Chris

[Craig Mackay]

Yep there is no right or wrong answer but to hell with it, my opinion is different so sod the ebay seller, lets report him and cock his little game up and effect their lifes anyway.

Cheers
Chris

What are opinions for if they don't shape the way a person makes their decisions? I've made my reasons as clear as I can on the matter. All i can say is that I did what I do whenever I have to make a decision. I weighed up my opinions on the matter and carried out what I felt was the right decision at the time.

Just out of interest those that complain about the sale of tarantulas on ebay for whatever reasons they can think off, do you also complain to the sellers about items like this:-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tarantula-Sponge-Spider-Water-Drinking-Bowls-Pets-Pet_W0QQitemZ380073309022QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Pet_Supplies_Reptiles_Spiders_Insects?hash=item380073309022&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1296%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Probably the biggest waste of money in terms of things for spiders, and likely to cause more problems than it solves. Yet still they are made and sold on probably quite a large scale within the hobby.
Seriously why not use that good keyboard time on complaining about something worth while.....just an idea off course.
Cheers
Chris

Well, the thing with those is that I doubt very much that if you reported that to ebay it'd be removed. It's not against their rules and they're not concerned with tarantula welfare from a buisiness point of view. Also, that's an issue that needs to be dealt with throughout the hobby and not just on ebay so it's not really all that relevent to the topic in my opinion.

I think much of the blame must lie with petshops as this is where most people get there first tarantula and are given all the accessories to get them started. If they did more research then they'd be able to give better advice to people buying their first T. The story goes like this alot of the time... First Tarantula is bought from petshop, it comes with poor viv setup advice and poor accessories like water sponges, people sooner or later meet new keepers, come to forums etc and learn that there are problems with their setups so they fix them. Just like plenty others when I got my first T I was told to use cotton wool in the water dish and soon found out this was a bad idea. No matter how much research you've done when you first come into the hobby you tend to trust the petshop to an extent. If they took more responsibilty in doing their research then I guarantee you that a lot less sponges would get used.

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi

What are opinions for if they don't shape the way a person makes their decisions?

Not argued that at all.

I've made my reasons as clear as I can on the matter.

Yep saw them and have commented

All i can say is that I did what I do whenever I have to make a decision. I weighed up my opinions on the matter and carried out what I felt was the right decision at the time.

Ok so would you still do the same now? I ask this as now I think you have seen a more indeph view of both side about the selling of tarantulas on Ebay? I mean the options are only report, or not report the sale and your weighed up opinions in this case does effect someone somewhere.

Well, the thing with those is that I doubt very much that if you reported that to ebay it'd be removed

But then I never said report to ebay I said complain to the seller.

It's not against their rules and they're not concerned with tarantula welfare from a buisiness point of view.

Neither is selling a tarantula as live food againts the rules or? and if the tarantula is sold as a live food then the welfare of the tarantula would also not be high on the list either, at least not in the way you mean.

Also, that's an issue that needs to be dealt with throughout the hobby and not just on ebay.

But would not be a good start to try and get seller to remove them by explaining the facts about such a product? Or making remarks about the product on ebay page they appear (can you do this? Im not sure). Or emailing any bidder of these items about the problems they can cause. As the buying of stuff on ebay seems to also be a part of the hobby why not make a start here by contacting the sellers?

so it's not really all that relevent to the topic in my opinion

In your opinion not, but in mine I think it is because it concerns tarantula welfare and ebay.

I think much of the blame must lie with petshops as this is where most people get there first tarantula and are given all the accessories to get them started. If they did more research then they'd be able to give better advice to people buying their first T. The story goes like this alot of the time... First Tarantula is bought from petshop, it comes with poor viv setup advice and poor accessories like water sponges, people sooner or later meet new keepers, come to forums etc and learn that there are problems with their setups so they fix them. Just like plenty others when I got my first T I was told to use cotton wool in the water dish and soon found out this was a bad idea. No matter how much research you've done when you first come into the hobby you tend to trust the petshop to an extent. If they took more responsibilty in doing their research then I guarantee you that a lot less sponges would get used.

yep I tend to agree but this has nothing to do with them on ebay.
all the best
Chris

[Craig Mackay]

Hi Chris, sorry it's taken so long to reply. Been really busy/drunk the last few days, lol!

Hi
Not argued that at all.

This suggested otherwise to me...

Yep there is no right or wrong answer but to hell with it, my opinion is different so sod the ebay seller, lets report him and cock his little game up and effect their lifes anyway.

To me this sounded as though you would rather I didn't act on my opinions and that I was wrong for doing so. I know that you disagree with my opinion but having a go at me for acting upon it would suggest that you did argue against that.

Ok so would you still do the same now? I ask this as now I think you have seen a more indeph view of both side about the selling of tarantulas on Ebay? I mean the options are only report, or not report the sale and your weighed up opinions in this case does effect someone somewhere.

Certainly, I have seen other sides of the story throughout this conversation and it would be wrong not to consider them if I had to make the decision again. However, I don't think they would sway me away from my original instincts.

But then I never said report to ebay I said complain to the seller.

Fair enough, I'll come back to this further down.

Neither is selling a tarantula as live food againts the rules or? and if the tarantula is sold as a live food then the welfare of the tarantula would also not be high on the list either, at least not in the way you mean.

True

But would not be a good start to try and get seller to remove them by explaining the facts about such a product? Or making remarks about the product on ebay page they appear (can you do this? Im not sure). Or emailing any bidder of these items about the problems they can cause. As the buying of stuff on ebay seems to also be a part of the hobby why not make a start here by contacting the sellers?

Complaining to each individual seller would be really time consuming and would only have a low impact. I think if everyone went into their local exotic pets store and pointed out the cons of the sponges and cotton wool then that would have a greater effect. I've since been back at the shop I got my first tarantula from to point this out although I haven't been back to see if anything has changed since although he seemed to take it positively. I think this would be a much more effective route to go down and it requires only a little effort from a lot of people. Contacting sellers on ebay would have a pretty small effect on the hobby in exchange for a lot of work.

[Peter Lacey]

Jeez there's a lot of assumptions being made in this thread. I so wished I had the vision that some claim to have. And god forbid the pet shop that makes a mistake, they'll be visiting hell for sure for selling dun, dun, dun, SPONGES!
Do ppl really believe tarantula come from such pristine conditions where clean (did someone mention chemicals) water is supplied in a dish, where climbing is restricted, where heat is supplied via a mat and humidity is maintained at a constant level.

Good on you Mr Clegg for your attempts. I'd be interested to hear more on your P. regalis venom studies, is that possible?

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi Chris, sorry it's taken so long to reply. Been really busy/drunk the last few days, lol!

No probs I don't hold anyone to replies.

To me this sounded as though you would rather I didn't act on my opinions.

Didn't say that at all or anything of the like.

and that I was wrong for doing so

But yes I do think you are wrong in this case for reasons stated already.

I know that you disagree with my opinion but having a go at me for acting upon it would suggest that you did argue against that.

Not having a go, just stateing how it reads to me.

Certainly, I have seen other sides of the story throughout this conversation and it would be wrong not to consider them if I had to make the decision again. However, I don't think they would sway me away from my original instincts.

Interesting.

Complaining to each individual seller would be really time consuming and would only have a low impact.

I could send an email to say 20 sellers online a lot quicker than I could drive to my local pet shop.

I think if everyone went into their local exotic pets store and pointed out the cons of the sponges and cotton wool then that would have a greater effect

yep I agree and a combination of the two would be better but not better for your transport costs. lol

I've since been back at the shop I got my first tarantula from to point this out although I haven't been back to see if anything has changed since although he seemed to take it positively.

As did I some years back but the problem I was given by shop owners, was that when they order other stuff from the company that produces the sponge, they also have to include the sponges because they are a part of a set range of accessories.This means to just chuck them away would be a los to bussiness etc. Of course I don't know the in's and out's of this so can't comment further to the truth, which is why I contacted the manufactures but as to yet no joy. (It's not just the BTS I like to try and be a pain in the ass to)

I think this would be a much more effective route to go down and it requires only a little effort from a lot of people. Contacting sellers on ebay would have a pretty small effect on the hobby in exchange for a lot of work.

As I say not really alot of work but the effectiveness of it I wouldn't even hazzerd a guess.


Hi Peter

Jeez there's a lot of assumptions being made in this thread. I so wished I had the vision that some claim to have.

Take this to be aimed at me so what vision do I claim to have?

And god forbid the pet shop that makes a mistake, they'll be visiting hell for sure for selling dun, dun, dun, SPONGES!

Has anyone said that? I have only stated that they are a unessary usless item. If you can have a go at getting them not being sold, then you are in effect educating not only pet shop owners who might sometimes give a dam about what they sell but also new keepers of tarantulas.
How many times are new keepers putting up pics of their tarantula set up on forums asking if it looks ok, only to be told get rid of the sponge etc? And what do they normally reply. "Oh the man at the pet shop said I should get one and it cost an extra 3 quid etc".

Do ppl really believe tarantula come from such pristine conditions where clean (did someone mention chemicals) water is supplied in a dish, where climbing is restricted, where heat is supplied via a mat and humidity is maintained at a constant level.

Again I am not too sure what you are getting at here? Is it aimed at where I stated that tarantula sponges probably do more harm than good?

Anyways I will answer as if it is:-
You are off course right tarantulas do not come from pristine conditions as I know from first hand experince so let us wipe out the following reasons for not geting a sponge:-
1. Crickets defecateing and layying eggs in the sponge (making the water turn bad)
2. because of the pourious nature not being able to clean it well

So now they are out the way because as you suggest they do not matter lets look at a couple of other reasons not to have them:-
1. After a time they start to fall apart and bits of the sponge can get caught up on fangs (I have seen this) and possibably (I can't state as fact) clog up their filter like mouth parts.
2. have you noticed that if you fill up a water dish with a sponge in it after about half an hour at the most the water has soaked into the botom of the sponge and the top is quite dry. Hmm how can your spider get the the water easily?
3. One sponge per spider. If you have say 40 spiders and the sponges cost 3 quid each thats 120 quid extra you have just spent out pluss you will have to kep replaceing them as they get old. Lucky the vast majority of tarantula keepers are also loto winners......phew!
4. Miss information. On the packet of many of these tarantula sponge products it show a picture of a tarantula with a little speach bubble that reads "I don'k like to drink from an open water dish.....please buy me this sponge". So do you see this as a good thing?
5. It is also often listed as an `All Natural Tarantula Sponge´I take this to mean these are taken from the worlds oceans which from what I gather are already under enough stress. Although I myself am not a big conservationist I do hate waste in the way that if it is not needed in any way then don't take it. That poor little sponge living its spongey life had to die for the sake of me getting it for my spider which didn't need it at all so I just ended throwing it in the bin!
6. Or does the `All Natural Tarantula Sponge´ mean that having a sponge to drink from is natural behaviour fot tarantulas? If you look at it this way then I will list this with Miss information.

So there are a fair few reason why I personly think the product should if it can be achieved be stoped and its not just due to them getting full up with crap.
I might also add that the micro habitate in the wild is completly different to anything you can create in your tarantula tank, so the relationships between many bacteria, and tarantulas that are found there could be completly different to any relationship between any bacteria you subject them to in captivity, so why even run the risk of submitting them to more, however low it may seem.
Your water example is an interesting aspect that I would not be at all supprised to find is the cause of some of the `unexplained´tarantula deaths people have from time to time.....but who knows?

Good on you Mr Clegg for your attempts. I'd be interested to hear more on your P. regalis venom studies, is that possible?

As would I but maybe in a different thread!

Cheers
Chris

Quick note to say sorry to Phil for going off topic a little and I will try and keep it on track in the future or should I start new threads when aspects are touched upon?

[Jacque Le Blanc]

Ebay rules

Surely there is a loophole. Arachnids are seen to many(non specialists) as insects, and we could say its for feeding monitor lizards or something?

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/wildlife.html

And as long as we can prove it is not endangered by clearly referencing these, ebay doesn't otherwise have an issue with "live" animals, but just needs to cover in case of illegal selling of endangered species.

see list, stick insects seem to get through easily..

http://home-garden.shop.ebay.co.uk/items/Spiders-Insects__W0QQ_sacatZ122950?_npmv=3

......Ideas for ebay tarantula adverts

"Specialist live insect arachnid food for sale"

Insects "Theraphosa blondi" is not on cites list, see animals that are here
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml


Cryptically, only the experienced would really know what this meant...


I haven't read all the other posts in this thread, hope I'm not repeating things.

[Peter Lacey]

LOL Chris, its not aimed at anyone in particular but there are assumptions within this thread, and many similar threads, directed to the person who purchases as if we have some vision via the internet to the person on the other end. We don't. It's done on trust and registrations and yet the attention is on a young kid who doesn't know any thing about tarantula, is going to buy a kit and its all going to go downhill from there. Its an unnecessarily negative perception, and quite probably wrong.

As for sponges, as far as I'm aware, at least one company has been contacted about these and are no longer offered by them. Of course the stock is likely to appear elsewhere, ebay for instance, but hopefully we'll see less of these.

I shall'nt respond to your itemised list. I don't condone sponges, or cotton wool, or gel and I have no idea why ppl think there's a need for them, apart from marketing by the suppliers and out of date books. But lets get this in context, its hardly a death sentence, as I insinuated, I'd be more concerned about the chlorine and other harmful substances found in our water.