Chicken Spider Pictures

[Chris Allen]

wow very interesting!thanks for sharing.mabey it would be a good idea to distribute some of these slings to other breeders to establish this species more in the hobby.seeing this thread also makes me wonder what other species of Phamphos could do well in a communal habitat such as these

[Helen Roberts]

I just want to say that I have enjoyed following this thread so far, although it is way out of my league at the moment. Way too technical for me.

[Todd Gearheart]

Enough to make it its own species?

Craig and all:

"...there is a clear difference in the occular arrangement and leg 4"

But is that enough to warrant it being described as a new species? I've heard some talking about T. apophysis and T. blondi being the same enough though the mature males are different due to one having tibial spurs and the other lacks them. Imports are showing T. apophysis females produce spiderlings without "pink" feet and T. blondi females produce spiderlings with the pink feet. ??? Figure that one out.

To me, this still comes down to the taxonomy debate between lumpers and splitters. Every year, Dr. Schmidt describes a new species. Then, three years later, Platnick takes it off the World Spider Catalog - again. Some taxonomists do not agree certain identifying characters warrant it enough to be described as a new species. Lumpers would say it's a geographical morph of the same species.

Until lumpers and splitters can come together on this, you will have two camps in the hobby. One great example would be the current screwed up deal with:

Pamphobeteus sp. "Ecuador"
Pamphobeteus sp. "Ecuador, type II"
Pamphobeteus sp. "South Ecuador/ Machalla"

Lumpers would probably say all three are geographical morphs of P. nigricolor. Spiltters will argue they are new species in the genus.

Todd

[Craig Bellamy]

Hi Todd,

I already mentioned that in my previous post below...

A) steely blue on CS is strictly only on 1st and 2nd Femurs whereas P.antinous is clearly on all 4.

I think its time to kill the P.antinous comparison, no idea why everyone is comparing a T they have never laid their hands on to one which looks mildy similar in a photo. As Martin said, there is a clear difference in the occular arrangement and leg 4 and I can confirm myself after having kept both species that there is no comparison, any more than T.Blondi and T.Apophysis, which incidentally were also commonly mistaken before Apophysis were firmly in the trade.

To continue the anatomical discussion, I shall soon be posting an occular photo of the CS in both male and female. If anyone would be kind enough to take close up occular pictures of other Pamphobeteus species adult female so we can get a picture log of the all the known species and do a little comparison. This should provide an interesting point for discussion and research as well as educate others within the forum that thought identification was just about colouring

Regards
Craig

Just to stir up more debate here. See this pic of a mature male P. antinous (from NE Peru). Legs 3 and 4 have the blue-purple sheen. Not just legs 1 and 2.

http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/PaAntinous.jpg

Todd

[Todd Gearheart]

NE Peru P. antinous mature male with blue-purple sheen on femurs of all legs

Just to stir up more debate here. See this pic of a mature male P. antinous (from NE Peru). Legs 3 and 4 have the blue-purple sheen. Not just legs 1 and 2.

http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/PaAntinous.jpg

Todd

[James Box]

ahh i can see how that could happen with the misidentification of this spider as X immanis!

[Colin D Wilson]

I agree with Jay...
though I myself do quite enjoy reading about what other people have added to their collection, hey, i've posted about them myself, added a few funny comments etc, all part of forum life.
Newcomers need to feel included in the whole picture and not left out of the techy stuff, and this thread's just an example of this.
At the end of the day, this is what arachnology is all about, and Jay's absolutely right in what he says about needing more enthusiasts out there like Craig, Martin, Ray etc etc etc

After 37 years of keeping spiders and reading everyday info in books and on forums, i have to add that this is an absolutely riveting thread, congratulations to all who have contributed so far, and i hope it goes on for another 90 odd posts

[J M Clegg]

I have got to say this easily the best thread that has appeared on these forums for a long long time. I have got bored with people telling the world they have just ordered another sling - or advising us that their spider successfully moulted last night.............Whilst I applaud newbie enthusiasm, it does get a little tiresome.

This is a proper thread, very interesting and very exciting. I hope there are a few more Craig Bellamy's out there somewhere. Well done Craig, brilliant topic, brilliant thread and very informative.

[Bryan_Dennis]

The things that come to those who wait may be the things left by those who got there first!

If you follow in someone else footsteps you'll allways be behind them.

Couldn't resist it .. Have a good weekend everyone..

[Martin Nicholas]

Actually James, The Chicken Spider was misidentified as X. immansis by a zoologist for the purposes of a paper written re. the relationship between spider and frog - that could be where you heard the story. It was from this researcher that I obtained my preserved specimen.

Maybe immansis DOES live with a frog as well - who knows!

[James Box]

i've heard of that relationship with Xenesthis immanis...

i can't wait til this particular species is classified and studied more. i'll definitely want to obtain some eventually, too. having such an amazing animal in a colony would be a fantastic thing.

thanks for all the information Craig and Martin!

[Martin Nicholas]

At risk of repeating myself, I do come back to the fact that an adult female Chicken Spider was compared to the type of P. antinious and the differences were significantly different for it to be "Split" rather than "Lumped"

Without my notes I can't give specifics however, I do remember the occular arrangement and dimmensions of leg 4 were key markers in this. Colour, as all taxonomists will tell you (again and again and again!!) is not a marker, although it is sorely tempting with some spiders.

The reason a description paper was not published was basically because we had only one specimen and no male. This would make a flimsy identification paper, open to review, revision (and ridicule!)

I have huge respect for Todd's experience with Pamphobeteus and would defer to him on the subject in almost every case, but (once again repeating myself from my previous post) no one knows or is going to know for sure until at least 3 females and a male are keyed out properly.

With Craigs kind assistance we should be able to answer the riddle, publish the paper and get on with studying these beasts.

On a tangent, Craig - did you see the narrow-mouth Microhylid frog Chiasmocleis ventrimaculatata in any of the burrows? it looks like this;


The general theory is that the spiders tolerate the frog down their burrow as it eats ants, ticks, parasitic flies etc, in return the frog obviously gets the sort of security that only comes with multiple giant hairy spiders! This symbiotic relationship is far from unique to the Chicken Spider and I have heard several reports of similar behaviour from India North America and SE Asia.

[Craig Bellamy]

As you will quite clearly, two major differences even from a distance.

A) steely blue on CS is strictly only on 1st and 2nd Femurs whereas P.antinous is clearly on all 4.

B) The hairs on the abdomen of P.antinous are long, light coloured and fuzzy, whereas on the CS they are neat combed, shorter and rusty.

That should clear that one up for now. I am sure there will be greater differences when looked at closer.

Regards
Craig

I would like to thank Craig for bringing more info and pics out on this unique species and all contributors on this thread.

Take a look at: http://www.birdspiders.com/archive/1...C58DD9FB7.html

I know it's all exciting to think that this is a "new" species, but I'm just reminding everybody, that in the taxonomy world, the "lumpers" would probably say this is a form of P. antinous. The "splitters" (like Dr. Schmidt) would make this a new species in a heart beat.

Either way, a thick-legged, stocky spider capable of a 10" legspan and is communal is very, very unique.

In the Pamphobeteus genus, the "Santo Domingo Goliath" of Ecuador and these S.E. Peruvian Pamphos are the true giants of the genus.

Todd
www.tarantulaspiders.com

[Todd Gearheart]

S. Peru P. antinous mature male

I would like to thank Craig for bringing more info and pics out on this unique species and all contributors on this thread.

Take a look at: http://www.birdspiders.com/archive/1...C58DD9FB7.html

I know it's all exciting to think that this is a "new" species, but I'm just reminding everybody, that in the taxonomy world, the "lumpers" would probably say this is a form of P. antinous. The "splitters" (like Dr. Schmidt) would make this a new species in a heart beat.

Either way, a thick-legged, stocky spider capable of a 10" legspan and is communal is very, very unique.

In the Pamphobeteus genus, the "Santo Domingo Goliath" of Ecuador and these S.E. Peruvian Pamphos are the true giants of the genus.

Todd

https://www.tarantulaspiders.com

[Craig Bellamy]

Thanks Ray, Uniform dark grey at L1.

What is L1 (do you mean LEG1lol)? this is not a term I am familiar with in regards to development? In your picture of the eggsac the stage of development are larvae/N2 the developmental stage before what we call a spiderling do you mean that spiderlings are dark grey?

L1 means as I sure you know after the first moult, which I use very loosely, is the same as 1st instar. L is Larven in latin. I tend to refer to L1 as first moult out of the eggsac, not within.. The spiderlings are dark grey, like T.Blondi spiderlings, but much smaller(penny sized)

I doubt they swim, nothing like Hysterocrates.

I was wondering, I always thought 100% humidity was virtually pure water, so when you were talking about 100% humidity I thought that you meant they were in that part of the forest that floodes as you see on TV? If they were flooded then that would give an indication to the climatical trigger for either mating, eggsac production, spiderling dispersal etc, a sort of "wetter" season in a humid climate, or do they have a drier season mate.

100% is the maximum moisture the air can hold at the given temperature and altitude. A steamy bathroom is pretty much 100%. The moisture was so high in Tambopata, that nothing would dry unless left in direct sunlight and electrical components soon started failing. Warning, if you take a laptop, make sure you keep it dry with silicone bags. Stuff everything electrical that you value with silicone crystals bags.

I like the quality of your information, almost giving a GPS site LOL, It wouldnt surprise me that some people (comercial collectors) after seeing your pictures and reading your locality information, wont be checking out flights already, and going to get a bunch to sell in the pet trade, I heard a rumour someone was trying to get a project going to get these farmed by the local indians as a source of income, did youhear anything of this?

They have known about the location for years, even before Martin went there. There are hundreds of images of people’s encounters with the CS in tambopata. It wouldn’t take much for a collector to ask them all for data. I would rather they brought back live specimens rather than dead ones, I am not saying I condone such activities, ideally we want it to be legit. It only takes a few dozen fertilized females, to litter Europe with these creatures and instigate mass breeding programs. They are fast growers, much faster than T.blondi, not too far off L.Parahybana.

From your earlier posts you are very sincere in your efforts to have these bred asap to fill the captive requirements for the pet trade (sorry i cannot help I will be leaving the UK in a few months, no I wont be in Peru mate ), I was wondering as you are so keen to get these kicked of in captivity when you say "distributed" will you be giving the young away free to experienced people rather than cashing in on them? Well done!
I am working on a similar project with the almost extinct Poecilotheria smithi and (my share of) the young from the eggsac laid last Saturday will be freely shared out amongst experianced keepers for establishing a joint BTS and Danish Breeding group.
Like you I can see when finacial renumerations from an endangered species cease to be the number one priority and establishing a strong captive colony takes priority mate.

I am no fool Ray and I have realised as well as some that have already mentioned to be, I could make an awful lot of money from this. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that if the rare P.Metalica were going for £150+ for a spiderling, my almost non-existant species would be worth that or maybe more with 120 spiderlings, I think the tax man would be licking his lips. If I had 3 eggsacs I’d have a Porsche, 6 a Ferrari… ok that’s it, I’m off to Peru in a private jet!
Ok seriously, I am here solely to appreciate and raise awareness of endangered species, not just to breed but to husband too. If you want to stick a spider in a minute cage, rather get a moult in a frame. All animals and indeed the CS can be appreciated a great deal more in their natural habitat, but if we cannot keep them there, then do you best to emulate this in our care. Now that’s a $20,000 dollar statement. There is a lot more to be made from ecotourism than selling tarantulas, so we work on that, and it would be a worthy investment and its a win win situation.
Having said all that, that’s not to say you shouldn’t make money, if it helps you achieve both then good on you. If I sell a million dollars of CS’s, you can bet your granny that I will put all back into conservation of some sort.

If you dont mind another couple of questions, there are some other people I have talked to wondered the same thing, so kill two birds with one stone so to speak LOL mate.
The dealer you got yours from mate, was he selling them individually or in groups? just wondering if you care to mention his name and when you got them then maybe if anyone else got them from the same dealer this would enlarge the captive population for your goal of getting these established quickly in the hobby so making it less worth while for commercial collectors to go for them? Also if the dealer was selling them singally how did you work out that they could be kept together? considering that they are not yet classified mate what gave it away? your scientific expertise here can help other people make sure they have the correct males for any possible females they might have bought from the same dealer?

This is a tricky one. To say it was a lucky break is an understatement. I literally knew of a pet shop dealer who knew of an importer that had brought back items from Peru. They are very confidential about their activities for obvious reasons, I simply made an appearance to look at some specimens and totally unknown to them, my eye struck gold. I throttled them later for location details and they were more precise after a few phone calls but I am not sure and they didn’t tell me at the time whether they were posted in or arrived on a shipment through the border. This was many years ago so these contacts, not particularly formal have vanished. Very vague I know, but that’s the animal trade for you.

If you call the first picture No 1 etc, pics no 10 and 12 (the first one after the eggsac pic) are they the same spider? Just wondering as they both seem to have the same light coloured forest soil in the foveal groove, but the spider in pic 10 looks like it is in a container of some sort, were you also doing some research on them mate? weighing them etc? As I will be doing something similar when I move to Central America maybe we could swap notes, you know mate the best weighing scales, holding containers etc for collecting the big stuff, if you were working on them that is Mate.

They are all the same species, no doubt at all. All pictures are at different stages of development, hence colour and size differences. I did a little research while in Tambo yes. The spider in the container was an 8” female weighing ~95grams. Though the other large spider was just under 10”. Weighing in at ~125 grams, though the abdomen was small. It is very important to get a good water resistant digital scale and keep silicone bags inside to reduce moisture or the readings will suffer.

You said this is not one of the Pamphobeteus sp you have bumped into, how do they differ scientifically from the big black Pamphobeteus sp sold in the 90s by Ian Wallace as P. antinous? ( i doupt if anyone would even have a picture of these anymore never mind a specimen, but these were huge blondi sized black spids. I know your ones are not the same is the small things sold as P. antinous today with the purple males, also how do they differ from the other species of Pamphobeteus you have bumped into? (scientifically not just social, chunkier etc) what are the hairs on the carapce like in structure compared to other Pamphobeteus sp? do the hairs on the abdomen point back over the carapace like P. petersi as Mikhail has mentioned?

My previous post will answer this bit, I don’t know anything about Ian Wallace’s P.sp., but would be great if someone could find a picture.

Any structural help you can give would help other people know if they have this species from the same dealer.
Thanks for your time mate, hope you dont mind all the questions, but its not just me who is curious.
Later and thanks again
Ray

It’s a pleasure Ray, questions are good, helps me to extract info I might otherwise not think of. I think there is enough in this monstrous post to start a research paper on. I challenge someone to do go ahead to do the necessary research. Perhaps the BTS could fund this trip, with a little fund raising? I know camps in Tambo will give free accommodation in exchange for duties if you were to conduct research. The BTS could aid a permit and we could have all the data we wish.
Phew…this forum is squeezing the life out of me.
Regards
Craig