New scorpion acquisition

[James Box]

went into my local petshop on Sunday for my weekly cricket top-up, and found they had some P. cavimanus in stock! i took the biggest one for starters, a nice feisty girl.
they were selling at £25 but knocked a fiver off for me, since i'm in there all the time, which is always nice. i'll get more when i get paid, as it would be nice to have another colony of scorps alongside my P. imperators.
it was rather cute when i transfered into her temporary tank...i'd put some cork bark with a bit of a hollow under it in the vermiculite, and she had no sooner set her feet down on the cork bark that she darted underneath! it was such a mad scramble for cover i had to laugh afterwards, though, she came out and sat on her waterdish

[Colin D Wilson]

James
From bad early experiences (and going against what it says on some web sites) P cavimanus are NOT that tolerant of each other and don't do well in small to medium communal tanks.
If you are intent on making a communal set up then provide the largest floor space you can (at least 12 square inches per scorp), give each individual scorpion somewhere to hide (a ratio of two hides per scorp is better), make the hides far apart and provide more than ample food.

The only real success's i've had have been with P. imperator and S. maurus (very deep substrate so they can make their own burrows)

Colin

[James Box]

oh, thanks for the info!!! i'll not put them together, then. i've had great success with the imperators, but assumed since i saw them together at the shop that they were also fine.
communal set-ups can be risky, i know, even with imperators, though i've never had that problem and do check up on them quite frequently.
with the cavimanus, it does make sense that they're less tolerant of others, though now you mention it. they're alot more bad tempered than their imperial cousins.

also, didn't realise you could keep S. maurus together to any degree, that's a species i've been meaning to obtain for a while.

[Bryan_Dennis]

Scorpions are like spiders and can be very individual and i can only backup what Colin say's with regards to P.cavimanus although If they are adult then the chance that one will kill the other is quite slim and even slimmer if they are 1.1
However if they are still scorplings then there's a very real danger that A will kill and eat B just after B has moulted....So if you are in doubt about the development of your scorpions then it's allways best to err on the side of caution....Regardless of specie.

With regards to S.maurus spp they usually don't go well together.
I have tried twice with 2 different groups of S.maurus fuscus where even after a month of being together they would still fight hard upon meeting each other when out on patrol. In both circumstances i ended up seperating them....
Do you know how old you S.maurus (specie?) were Colin as i've noticed they do calm down a bit in when they reach their golden years..(S.maurus unfortunatly is not quite so long lived as so many other scorpions).

Another thing is that it doesn't really matter how big your terrarium is as scorpions will usually allways move out to the edge and then follow the sides of the terrarium when out patrolling at night...it's only a matter of time before they meet each other. Not just that they will usually also congregate there where the micro-enviroment is perfect for them....and whats perfect for one is usually perfect for another..!

I have at the moment a pair of S.maurus palmatus and they seem a little calmer although they are still definetly not what you could regard as communal scorpions.
They inhabit their own scrapes/burrows and it's clear to see that they try to avoid each other when they get to within a few centimeters. They also never hang out together.

A final word on P.cavimanus....Their reputation for being feisty is fair enough however that feistyness is usually directed towards their keepers and not their room mates.....................................although there will allways be exceptions..

[James Box]

feisty in my direction, indeed!
she's young, but adult, i believe...however, i'm not really sure i'd want to take risks, with what you're both saying.
with the Emperors, i've never had a problem, in fact they seem to love company. i've had one get a bit snippy with a newcomer, but calmed down not long after. chances are she was being snippy with me, and just mistook him for the disturbance i was causing to her day!
i've heard some Heterometrus sp. can be kept together, but again, i hear that's hit and miss. i had a few laoticus together, and i have a feeling that some "disappearances" were almost definitely due to cannibalism...but they were very young.

[Colin D Wilson]

Do you know how old you S.maurus (specie?) were Colin as i've noticed they do calm down a bit in when they reach their golden years..(S.maurus unfortunatly is not quite so long lived as so many other scorpions)...

4 adults (Scorpio maurus (Israeli Gold)), brought up together from 3rd instar....and no they don't seem to live long after maturity either...you're right.
have just lost my last little lady that lived on her own for the last few months.
apparently the S. maurus fuscus are a little more solitary than the maurus, have never tried communes with fuscus though so i can only go on what i've picked up from others

however that feistyness is usually directed towards their keepers

never has a truer word been spoken Bryan

[Bryan_Dennis]

Well done Colin on getting your Israeli Gold (Scorpio maurus palmatus) from instar 3 right up to adult and beyond..That's no easy feat.!...Although i'd be very surprised if you told me you got any young out of them ......... Did you?

[Colin D Wilson]

Just noticed i missed the palmatus off...doh!

they were in a deep substrate 18" x 18" floor space tank that was kept quite moist & humid for saying they're a desert species, we had a few sessions with the superglue when they were juvies but as they grew on to maturity they settled down and rarely left the entrance to their burrows, so really it was a good combination of luck, luck and being lucky that they lived that long. (although by long, i mean only a few years)

and no....not a sniff at any young, apart from the guy we bought them off late 90's, i don't know anyone who's managed to breed them.
Do you have a sexed M & F in your pair, Bryan?

[Bryan_Dennis]

Do you have a sexed M & F in your pair, Bryan?

Well they should be 1.1...or at least that was what i paid for. However their pectines are very similar as is their overall build - and more importantIy their chela size and shape. I think the seller mistook a sub adult female for a male as one of them moulted early last year.

apart from the guy we bought them off late 90's, i don't know anyone who's managed to breed them

No, me neither...........some real teaser's these are..

[Colin D Wilson]

How easy are they to come by in Denmark? by that i mean do you have suppliers within the country.

If they're on the less obtainable side, maybe we could work something out and have a male shipped out to you.

[Bryan_Dennis]

No, no suppliers of insects over here....It's all on a hobby basis.
I had a couple of contacts in Israel that sent me a few bits and bobs but after the customs last summer started holding back my packages from Israel until the contents were dead (Denmark is not quite as cosy as you might imagine!) i decided to call it day.

It doesn't matter though as i've basically decided i'm calling it a day with Scorpio...It's to tough!.
Instead i'm having good success with Smeringurus mesaensis which is neither to easy.
I've succesfully raised them from 2i to adult and the 1st small brood fell a couple of months ago after a 13 month gestation period.
I'm also slowly moving from arid over to bark so thanks for the offer of fixing me up with a male Colin but i don't think it'll be necessary, besides winters kicked in over here so no animal post for me now until next spring.....It'll have to be down to someone else to crack the Scorpio enigma..

[Toran Tanner]

all very nice advise, but I do disagree to a point. in the past I have keep Androctonus australis, Androctonus bicolor, and many other non communal specie's communal. So has Brian S it is all a matter of food really and they way you put them together feed them really good before putting them together. I found that when I took my Androctonus australis apart my biggest female and my male both died of what I can only say to be depression. The 2 of them shared a burrow and food. Another thing I found to be very great for communal is giving the things to do. Like my Andro's I gave them very deep substrate, all most a foot deep they loved to burrow.
Others I gave lots of sticks and things to climb on ding under and almost 90% of the time they shared burrow or hides. But food is top keep them feed...


cheers

[Colin D Wilson]

Are you keeping the S. mesaensis communally, if so, well done to raise them to adult. i've never lept them myself but know a chap over here that has (singularly housed), he's into the more obscure, least kept, species, including DWA.
If you change your mind in the spring, the offers there.

[Bryan_Dennis]

in the past I have keep Androctonus australis, Androctonus bicolor, and many other non communal specie's communal

Hello Toran...the thing is, like you allready said...They are not communal...They may tolerate each other in captivity if theres an abundance of food (not everyone has access to that) and if the other enviromental parameters are correct and if they are adult so that an attacker would run the risk of also being damaged in an duel.......But it's not natural.
Any young in the communal setup will also be regarded as food so there would have to be loads of small hiding places for them which would also mean that there'd have to be an overweight of food in the enclosure which in turn would mean that you'd run the risk of the youngsters experiencing bad moults and the adults being stressed because of disturbances from prey items.

However i know we live in a world of exceptions so if you've had no problems with your setups then all i can say is "well done mate"...

I found that when I took my Androctonus australis apart my biggest female and my male both died of what I can only say to be depression

Highly unlikely they died of depression Toran...If they often huddled together when housed communally and then there was a death after one was removed i'd be more inclined to thing that it had something to do with the enviroment or their physiology... humidity/osmosis..It could well have been that they needed to huddle together to maintain their correct water level....The removal of one tipped the balance and there was death....especially if you are referring to desert/arid species....
As i'm sure you know there's still a lot of guess work with scorpions, especially when we get down to micro enviromental factors.

So has Brian S

I know Brian keeps plenty of scorpions communally but to be fair he also admits to losing a few now and again...That is of course no problem if you have plenty of examples but if you've only 1 of each then why take the chance.

Others I gave lots of sticks and things to climb on ding under and almost 90% of the time they shared burrow or hides. But food is top keep them feed

Again, if non communal species share burrows or hides then it's fair to say the cause is enviromental/forced and not emotional...It's still not really known how big a role osmosis has to play in many desert/arid species..

Still, i'm no scorpion expert so if you reckon ample food is the key then i'm glad to hear that works for you.
BTW..what do you reckon to the english weather Toran?..

Are you keeping the S. mesaensis communally

I initially kept them together at instar 2 in small groups of 5 to a container but after a few losses they were housed individual.
I had a few more losses due to bad moult at instar 2 to 3 but after i screwed the temp up to 38-40C day and not under 30C at night i didn't/don't have any more problems with them.
For humidity/moisture i used a small "mist maker" which is a small device you can place in water which then through ultrasonic vibrations causes "fog"....I let them have a fogging now and again (season dependent) for a couple of minutes.
With small adjustments in the scorpions enclosure height i can created realistic "morning dew" scenarios. I also usually turn of the halogens above them the day they've had a bit of fog to give them the chance to get some moisture without it being burnt away.

If you change your mind in the spring, the offers there.

Thanks for that Colin, it's kind of you to offer and i'll bear it in mind..

[Toran Tanner]

bryan I am loving the english weather it's great. could use a bit less sun though it's to sunny here LOL
I can tell you for sure the enviroment was not the native home of these scorps but it was then nexts best thing. I keep my scorps in a way most people told me I was stupid. At one time I had my A. australis in a 20 gal tall tank with almost 2 feet of soil sand mix with a moisture gradiant that was beautifully close to how it is in deserts dry on top and getting damper the deeper you go. I had 4 A. austrialis living together they had close to like 3-4 feet of burrows. temps where at the surface I keep at 85- 90 degrees in the day droping to 70 to 75 depending the time of year winter low 60's. mid burrow was always about 75.
water I gave them none but once a month too act as rain loads of water to bring the moisture up in the gradient.

just an idea how I keep mine I thought it worked great.

I will be keeping them again in the future when I get around to getting a DWA