what constitutes overfeeding?

[Craig Bellamy]

Please don't take this the wrong way Craig, but no you don't. You are making the tanks nice for you and others to look at. The spider isn't even aware of its surroundings in the same way we are.

I did take it the wrong way, these are very bold statements, of which your and Ray seem to make too easily.

The tank is set up to be diverse, range of temperatures, humidity, light, air flow and substrate. I personally think you get a healthy tarantula from it as it knows everything about the tank as it lays a silk trip thread strategically outside then running down the burrow. Through my discovery he is far more stimulated than a spider in a shoebox. Happier is a word used earlier, regardless of not being a human, it is simply more than being just ok, it's about stimulation. All spiders in the wild do things, you cannot argue that. In a shoebox, they do nothing, you do the maths.

Spiders don't have emotions. You can't humanise them.

Again, a bold statement, we know very little about a human brain, let alone a spider, so better not to go down there unless plan to publish a paper on it. I didn't intend to humanise anything.

Many of my spiders I hardly ever get to see, and I'm happy about that. It means that they are content with their conditions

I'd imagine the arboreals, heavy web spinning and tunnelling digging are pretty much immune from this. I was refering more to the common ground dwelling which often tend to be the largest, most popular and heaviest fed, especially on mice.

[James Box]

well i do agree on a couple points here, Craig. i didn't quite pick up before that you were talking about people simply fattening up their terrestrial T's, etc.
now that you've clarified, i do agree. apparently a fat spider isn't necessarily a healthy one, and i think that point has been discussed. i've certainly learned something new about it: slings sometimes benefit from a generous diet (not powerfeeding, but simply generous), whereas adults don't have to be grotesquely fat to be considered content/healthy.

as for the workings of the human or animal mind, i agree there as well. we don't know how far it goes. however, if an animal tends to thrive well in certain conditions, we can deduce that it's at least content.
i've probably already mentioned this recently, but one of my G. roseas hid for months in its hide, it didn't eat, though it did moult at one point. it hid for ages after that too.
eventually i thought that if i changed its tank and substrate a bit, it might come out and actually eat.
well all i had spare was a smaller tank about 2/3's the size of its previous one - the tank the same size as that belonging to my other rosea.
once i put him/her in there, and coaxed him/her gently out of the hide to let him/her check out the surroundings, he/she didn't return to the hide, but started acting like the other rosea did, resting lazily, climbing the sides, or tidying.
so, i had one rosea, perfectly content in a larger tank, and another obviously more comfortable in a smaller one.
now, i may have misread the signals, it may have been a case of not liking the substrate, or just being on an eccentric G rosea fast, but it really seems the two spiders preferred different sized enclosures.
my long-winded point is that i agree we don't know what goes on in a spider's mind...however, by observing, we may be able to work out where an individual spider feels safest and most content. this may be a shoebox set up, or it may be an elaborate set up.
i would assume that spiders don't feel happiness the way we do, for a few reasons, but i'm open to nature surprising me. all i know is that a content terrestrial spider will probably sit still and eat when necessary.

another small point: some spiders are naturally more active then others, shifting substrate, weaving webs, climbing, etc. some are lazy sods, like T. blondi's.
the fact my roseas are acting pretty much like most roseas do, in the wild or captive, is a sign that they feel safe.
alot of activity in the wild i would assume was down to avoiding predators.
once we remove the predators, we remove alot of stress and unnecessary activity for the spider, and the result is often an apparently 'lazier' spider.

oh just one quick point. i was made aware of somebody who had apparently managed to keep solifugids alive for over two years. this was important, because in captivity most solifugids only last months at best.
this person's main apparent for success was that he allowed hibernation, but i feel it may be relevant to this discussion to mention he kept them in coffee cups. there is almost no room in a coffee cup for a full-grown solifugid to swing even a relatively-sized cat, and this goes completely against some of what i had read, which theorised they needed lots of room.
the keeper however felt that because a solifugid only runs to catch food and perhaps chase a source of shade (hence the stories), if you gave it food and shade, it only needed a tiny area to be content. it worked for him!

[Ray Gabriel]

[/QUOTE] The tank is set up to be diverse, range of temperatures, humidity, light, air flow and substrate. I personally think you get a healthy tarantula from it as it knows everything about the tank as it lays a silk trip thread strategically outside then running down the burrow. [/QUOTE]

I have spiders which lay a silk thread on the substrate of my photographic stage, its got nothing to do with any sort of discovery you have made, or anything to do with how well its enclosure is, its to do with the spider trying to locate where it is in order to find some shelter where it can hide away from the light.

[/QUOTE] Through my discovery he is far more stimulated than a spider in a shoebox. Happier is a word used earlier, regardless of not being a human, it is simply more than being just ok, it's about stimulation. All spiders in the wild do things, you cannot argue that. In a shoebox, they do nothing, you do the maths. [/QUOTE]

WHAT DISCOVERY? all you have done is put a spider into a newly planted vivarium, and so far the blondi trying to find a nice dark hole in which to live has put some silk down, its been done before.

Yes spiders in the wild do "things", my spiders do "things", even in small plastic boxes you do the "maths", a spider in an empty barren tank will do virtually the same as a spider in a planted up tank, find somewhere to hide away from the light and disturbance.


[/QUOTE] Again, a bold statement, we know very little about a human brain, let alone a spider, so better not to go down there unless plan to publish a paper on it. I didn't intend to humanise anything. [/QUOTE]

But you are doing so by adding human emotions to a non human, and it is not a bold statement simply because you dont see spider train drivers, or lawyers etc, spiders work on instinct, there are tons of scientists out there who will acknowledge that, do you think you know better are you going to publish a paper saying they do?


[/QUOTE] I'd imagine the arboreals, heavy web spinning and tunnelling digging are pretty much immune from this. I was refering more to the common ground dwelling which often tend to be the largest, most popular and heaviest fed, especially on mice.[/QUOTE]

Many of the large jobbys i have had, once housed properly only came out at night mice feeders (defrosted) or not, just like Phil has said. my ones even bred which means i must have been doing something right, and they must have been stress free in there small unplanted barren boxes.

[Craig Bellamy]

You know Ray, I haven't even bother to read you post, as I think you are always just here to argue. Not in the spirit of things. A polite request, please don't respond to my posts in future.

Thanks
Craig

[Ray Gabriel]

i was made aware of somebody who had apparently managed to keep solifugids alive for over two years. this was important, because in captivity most solifugids only last months at best.
this person's main apparent for success was that he allowed hibernation, but i feel it may be relevant to this discussion to mention he kept them in coffee cups. there is almost no room in a coffee cup for a full-grown solifugid to swing even a relatively-sized cat, and this goes completely against some of what i had read, which theorised they needed lots of room.
the keeper however felt that because a solifugid only runs to catch food and perhaps chase a source of shade (hence the stories), if you gave it food and shade, it only needed a tiny area to be content. it worked for him!

Lots of good comments there James, but i would like to highlight this one in particular, it is only by trial and error that many animals have been established in captivity. King Snakes used to be impossible to breed in captivity untill someone put them under his bed for the winter, people used to laugh at me (many still do) for my comments on wet and dry seasons, hibernation etc, when I first sugested and tried them years ago for spiders, but since then as people have found the spiders adapt better to captivity and breed, its not such a stupid idea.

I cannot wait to hear what Jenny says about them at the BTS lectures, these are one species of arachnid i would love to try and breed, its keeping them alive like you have said is the problem.

[Phil Rea]

I did take it the wrong way, these are very bold statements, of which your and Ray seem to make too easily.

The tank is set up to be diverse, range of temperatures, humidity, light, air flow and substrate. I personally think you get a healthy tarantula from it as it knows everything about the tank as it lays a silk trip thread strategically outside then running down the burrow. Through my discovery he is far more stimulated than a spider in a shoebox. Happier is a word used earlier, regardless of not being a human, it is simply more than being just ok, it's about stimulation. All spiders in the wild do things, you cannot argue that. In a shoebox, they do nothing, you do the maths.

Well, the way you take my comments are up to you I guess, despite how they were intended, and Ray's entitled to his opinion, just like me and just like you. If you choose to feel offended by responses to your posts on a bulletin board, then there's nothing I can do. It's a discussion board, and within reason and the bounds of decency, everyone's entitled to air their views.

All my burrowers do what they do in the wild. They burrow. All my arboreals seem content enough where they are (apart from P. murinus, who haven't quite decided if they're arboreal or not ). My terrestrials also seem fine. Personally I don't see how sticking some plastic plants in and giving them masses of wasted space would help them.

I have bred some of my spiders and produced viable eggsacs and spiderlings (and Ray's spider keeping and breeding successes are well known). If there was a problem with my spiders environment then presumably they would not be 'happy' to breed and would not do so. They have and are still doing.

Again, you mention stimulation. Have there been any studies carried out on tarantulas which prove that they have the mental capability for stimulation? Can they get bored? I don't think they can, obviously you think different.

You accuse me of making bold statements. Feel free to disprove them.

Again, a bold statement, we know very little about a human brain, let alone a spider, so better not to go down there unless plan to publish a paper on it. I didn't intend to humanise anything.

They were your comments, and it was your message. I look forward to your paper refuting mine

You don't have to publish every time you have an opinion.

I'd imagine the arboreals, heavy web spinning and tunnelling digging are pretty much immune from this. I was refering more to the common ground dwelling which often tend to be the largest, most popular and heaviest fed, especially on mice.

But the point is that they don't wander far from their retreats in general unless they're mature males looking for mates. So it's only their immediate environment that affects them.

How many of them in the wild would encounter vertebrate prey on a regular basis?

You mention that you have seen a difference by keeping your spider in this way. How many spiders have you based your observations on?

For the record (and in keeping with the thread's original topic). I try not to have spiders with obvious chubby abdomens. If a spider's dragging its abdomen on the ground, then despite the potential for injury, if it climbs and falls, then in my opinion the abdomen would be more prone to rupture.

[Ray Gabriel]

You know Ray, I haven't even bother to read you post, as I think you are always just here to argue. Not in the spirit of things. A polite request, please don't respond to my posts in future.

Thanks
Craig

See my last post to James no arguing there.

Ray

[Peter Lacey]

I think what we have here are 2 different approaches to keeping spiders and perhaps 2 different end goals.
For my part I like to set up an enclosure that looks natural, looks appealing and has more interest than just the occupant. I don't pretend to think its accurate nor do I believe it makes the spider happier. My goal is to avoid distressing the spider, trying to recreate the right temperature and humidity, whilst also providing a habitat that enables me to observe. That may be a compromise but if I felt it had a negative effect on the spider I'd change things. I read the comments and experiences of others and adapt my conditions but still with the intention of keeping a "show environment".
It's quite obvious serious keepers maintain many species in the simplest of conditions and are rewarded with some excellent results. They create breeding conditions and experiment with communal habitats and perhaps they help to provide studies that provide us with a better understanding, maybe even help in conservation projects.
Who is tell whom is wrong? Are we not all right to different degrees? I guess it depends on your goal. But it would be a bold person to say their spiders were happier.

I've run a mature gamers (very active) forum for over 6 years. I've seen how defensive and opinionated we can become, and how others can respond to our
threads and read into our comments in a manner that we didn't expect. It's a forum. It's there for debate and information, the sharing of ideas and experiences. Its all to easy to take offence and move away from the original topic. Which reminds me, overfeeding, what are your experiences?


"Little is achieved by attack, much is achieved by sharing our knowledge"
- me 15/12/07

[colin haris]

I think what we have here are 2 different approaches to keeping spiders and perhaps 2 different end goals.
For my part I like to set up an enclosure that looks natural, looks appealing and has more interest than just the occupant. I don't pretend to think its accurate nor do I believe it makes the spider happier. My goal is to avoid distressing the spider, trying to recreate the right temperature and humidity, whilst also providing a habitat that enables me to observe. That may be a compromise but if I felt it had a negative effect on the spider I'd change things. I read the comments and experiences of others and adapt my conditions but still with the intention of keeping a "show environment".
It's quite obvious serious keepers maintain many species in the simplest of conditions and are rewarded with some excellent results. They create breeding conditions and experiment with communal habitats and perhaps they help to provide studies that provide us with a better understanding, maybe even help in conservation projects.
Who is tell whom is wrong? Are we not all right to different degrees? I guess it depends on your goal. But it would be a bold person to say their spiders were happier.

I've run a mature gamers (very active) forum for over 6 years. I've seen how defensive and opinionated we can become, and how others can respond to our
threads and read into our comments in a manner that we didn't expect. It's a forum. It's there for debate and information, the sharing of ideas and experiences. Its all to easy to take offence and move away from the original topic. Which reminds me, overfeeding, what are your experiences?


"Little is achieved by attack, much is achieved by sharing our knowledge"
- me 15/12/07

I totally agree with Peter, we all have different ways of looking after our T's. Each spider is as different as the owner who keeps them. I feel that only we know how to keep them happy and healthy, by studying the individual T's and learning how they behave and react to how we are looking after them.... so stop fighting or I'll ave the lot of ya!!!

[James Box]

agreed, keyboard warfare isn't too productive, however if someone is saying something that someone else knows to be false, and the first person reacts badly, well it's hardly the fault of the one correcting, is it?

there are loads of techniques people use, and of course many techniques work to varying degrees, and we're all fumbling towards keeping them the best way they can be kept. the discussion can be informative and open new ideas to tarantula/invertebrate husbandry that a reader may not have considered, which can only be a good thing.
Ray's right...this is largely trial and error and i'd say it's not an exact science. thankfully, though, there are some who have had much success with their methods, and thus deserve to be listened to when they have experience to back up their statements and observations.

[James Box]

Lots of good comments there James, but i would like to highlight this one in particular, it is only by trial and error that many animals have been established in captivity. King Snakes used to be impossible to breed in captivity untill someone put them under his bed for the winter, people used to laugh at me (many still do) for my comments on wet and dry seasons, hibernation etc, when I first sugested and tried them years ago for spiders, but since then as people have found the spiders adapt better to captivity and breed, its not such a stupid idea.

I cannot wait to hear what Jenny says about them at the BTS lectures, these are one species of arachnid i would love to try and breed, its keeping them alive like you have said is the problem.

i will definitely venture back into the world of solifugid keeping when i can justify the £40 price tag at my local pet shop. they seem to have a running supply of young solifugids, though i'm not certain of the exact species.
i would LOVE to hear what Jenny has to say at the BTS lectures, but unfortunately can't make it...so i hope to be able to read a synapsis or hear a recording at some point.

actually, this ties into the discussion about over-feeding, as many feel that a solifugid's apparently voracious appetite is a sign that you should feed it loads. however if i remember correctly, the chap i mentioned before who kept his alive for over 2 years also slowed down the feeding, which seems to slow down the metabolic rate and thus lengthens the life cycle of the creature.

[Ray Gabriel]

Have a word with Lee, see if he can get any imported for after the lectures, once people know how to keep them alive there will probably be a market for them.

Hi hope jenny gives out care sheets

Ray

[James Box]

i hope she posts them online!
that would be great if Lee could get them in...pretty sure he'd charge less!

[Colin D Wilson]

Hi hope jenny gives out care sheets

Ray

So do I....

this is a "branch of the tree" i've been wanting to try for years.