New to BTS; Can anybody tell me about pampho's?

[Ray Gabriel]

You mean this? http://research.amnh.org/entomology/...og/INTRO1.html
It was last updated in April of 2006 so that's not too bad.

It's ironic that i didn't look here. My mom worked at this museum for 6 years. I was recently given a great behind the scenes tour of their research facilities by one of their anthropologists. It was frikkin' amazing. Too bad they don't have example photo's to go with the list.

Edit: Look what i found...

Gen. Pamphobeteus Pocock, 1901

Transferred to other genera:
P. platyomma Mello-Leitão, 1923 -- see Vitalius.


And then further down the page:

Gen. Vitalius Lucas, Silva & Bertani, 1993

Nomina dubia:
V. platyomma (Mello-Leitão, 1923a: 228, originally in Pamphobeteus, T here by Lucas, Silva & Bertani, 1993: 245, jm, Brazil) -- Bertani, 2001: 309.

Further still:

mf wacketi (Mello-Leitão, 1923)....................Brazil
Pterinopelma w. Mello-Leitão, 1923a: 185, f. 114-115 (Dm).
Pamphobeteus insularis Mello-Leitão, 1923a: 241 (Df).
Pamphobeteus masculus Piza, 1939a: 6, f. 4-6 (Dm).
Pamphobeteus platyomma Bücherl, 1949a: 126, pl. II (m, misidentified).
Pamphobeteus platyomma Bücherl, 1957: 403, f. 86 (m, misidentified).
Pterinopelma w. Bücherl, Timotheo & Lucas, 1971: 129 (Tm from Eurypelma=Avicularia, erroneous S of V. dubius and V. vellutinus).
Pamphobeteus litoralis Piza, 1976b: 56 (Dm).
Pamphobeteus platyomma Schmidt, 1986: 59, f. 96 (m, misidentified).
V. platyomma Schmidt, 1993d: 100, f. 307 (m, misidentified).
Aphonopelma w. Schmidt, 1997g, 1998h: 19, f. 176, 183 (m).
V. platyomma Schmidt, 1997g, 1998h: 20, f. 229 (m, misidentified).
V. platyomma Schmidt, 1998d: 5, f. 3 (f, misidentified).
V. platyomma Peters, 2000b: 132, f. 388-389 (mf, misidentified).
V. w. Bertani, 2001: 294, f. 16, 83-86, 179-180 (Tm from Aphonopelma, Sf).
V. w. Peters, 2003: 312, f. 1250-1252, 1258-1260 (mf).


I don't know why breeder/dealers can't do this kind of research. Maybe they're just too busy breeding and selling inverts...

Most dealers are only interested in money not the spiders, which is one of the reasons why many of the species such as Hysterocrates sp are sold as H. gigas, H. hercules etc so they sell better, almost every dealer has Avicularia avicularia on thier price lists........the simple fact that NO ONE knows what they really look like does not seem to bother them, and then the rest of the Avicularia follow in that respect, A. metallica, etc, Pterinochilus mamilatus is still sold openly in Europe..........even after Richards revision, and how many species are sold as Euthalus pulcherimaklassi?

With the exception of a very few dealers (the Spider Shop for one) most dealers just sell on spiders under the names they have bought them as or something else, they dont care about proper species identification, only breeders and keepers (and the rare dealer) are the ones that are really bothered about things being named properly.

Ray

[Ethan Atkiss]

Most dealers are only interested in money not the spiders, which is one of the reasons why many of the species such as Hysterocrates sp are sold as H. gigas, H. hercules etc so they sell better, almost every dealer has Avicularia avicularia on thier price lists........the simple fact that NO ONE knows what they really look like does not seem to bother them, and then the rest of the Avicularia follow in that respect, A. metallica, etc, Pterinochilus mamilatus is still sold openly in Europe..........even after Richards revision, and how many species are sold as Euthalus pulcherimaklassi?

With the exception of a very few dealers (the Spider Shop for one) most dealers just sell on spiders under the names they have bought them as or something else, they dont care about proper species identification, only breeders and keepers (and the rare dealer) are the ones that are really bothered about things being named properly.

Ray

So bearing this all in mind do you (and other readers here) prefer to buy from bigger dealers or private hobbyist breeders?

[James Box]

reliable ones that we know, if at all possible

[Ray Gabriel]

So bearing this all in mind do you (and other readers here) prefer to buy from bigger dealers or private hobbyist breeders?

As i have kept most of the species which have been in the hobby, most of the stuff i have now, i have either collected myself, or is W/C.

If i was to buy anything else it would mosy probably be from breeders,

And since Lee from the Spider Shop knows most of the breeders I would buy from and Imports material i am interested in, 85% of my stuff comes from him....makes life easier all round, though if there are ther odd bits i need i would by from breeders preferably.

Recently though most of the spiders i have been chasing are dead ones, so it dosent really matter where they come from.

Ray

[Brandon Anderson]

WOW Ray

I think you are being a bit hard on us uneducated dealers that love the hobby every bit as much as you or anyone else, I used to have the upmost respect for you and I have to tell you I'm pretty bummed about what you wrote above, I think it was judgmental and disrespectfull, I realize now that you probably dont care at all what I think about you and that is fine but every story has 2 sides to it and in defense of HUMANS everywhere, who make mistakes, heres mine, Ive been collecting/selling T's for 15+ years and had plenty of bugs in jars way before that, every time I hear of a name change I fix it on my list imediately and just cause I havent had the time, as I work a full time & ship many tarantula/etc. orders daily, to search for info on things I dont even know are wrong does not mean I am some money hungry scoundrell who is just trying to get one over on the general public, give me a break, here are some pix of the P. sp. platyomma I am currently selling in the US:




I know pix arent worth a p!$$ to use for Id.ing T's but they look identicle to the T's that Ethan posted so we dealers must not be complete idiots, I've even sent species exuviums to you personaly in an attempt to properly I.D them and you still speak like this of me and my buisness, I dont know what ever happened to you to make your opinion of dealers so low but its not fair to lump all dealers together as scum, especialy for no other reason than we may not know as much as you, pretty uncool Ray, and I feel stupid now for telling others I have met that you were a great guy and how I thought you were one of the best out there doing species work, which I still believe is true but damn Ray this post really cut me deep, you should use your knowledge to help us fix the prob rather than bad mouth us for something we didnt even know we were doing wrong, its true on my web site right now I have the T's above labled as P. platyomma, not P. sp. platyomma, and the reason why is that from way back when Bryant Capiz was my only source for T's, {and a greater Dealer I have not met}, I was taught by the books I had avail. and word of mouth that the spiders in the pix above were P. platyomma I had no reason to question it as they all looked consistantly the same so I have believed that since then untill now and I will be changing it as soon as I get done here, how that makes me a greedy low-life, just waiting to prey on the next unsuspecting tarantula keeper I can find, is beyond me !!

I do this because I love the hobby, have for years, I dont make a bunch of money selling T's {hence the full time on the side}, and I never expected to, I do it cause I love it, and I love sharing it, I dont charge outrageous amounts for the T's I sell, try not to mislable anything on my list, and if you read my 350or so reviews HERE from start to finish you will see that I am deffinately not just in this to make a quick buck!! and I resent anyone saying that I am, but it downright hurts that it has to be you Ray as I really did have alot of admiration for you and what your doing, right now I do not. Did you ever think of maybe getting ahold of any of the dealers and telling them that something is mislabled, I know you never tried to contact me reguarding invalid or mislabled T's, you have been studying for years man, been to lots of exotic places, prob. caught wild T. blondi in so. america!! I graduated high school, have read all the T books I have been able to find {of which half are filled w/ bogus info to begin with} AND RAISED THOUSANDS OF T'S, in captivity, alot from slings to adults, and even bred 15 or 20 species, You may know more than I do but knowledge is no good when you dont share it and bad mouth others for not having it. sorry if any of this offends anyone but I just cant stand by and say nothing when this hobby is as much mine as anyones even you Ray, I really would have rather heard that stuff from anyone but you, just my 2 cents, and PEACE ALL, B.

[Colin D Wilson]

Hi Brandon and welcome

Sorry to drop in hard on your first post, but BTS Rules and Regs state.

( We respectfully ask that you do not start threads that will create bad feeling and arguments. These threads will be deleted without explanation.
This also applies to "replying posts"

It seems, from the content of your post, that you may have taken any "generalised" comments made above as a direct attack on yourself. From reading through ..this does not seem, to me, to be the case.
If you have any further points to be made in this matter could you please direct them to any parties by private messaging, the forum does not need to have personal views of this matter discussed in public.
I have left your post as is, but Admin may feel the need to edit accordingly at their discretion

Regards

Colin

[Brandon Anderson]

Plea

It has come to my attention that the above post may be edited as some may deem that it causes hard feelings, I would ask that you just try and leave it as complete as possible as it is a valid reply to the statements made in the body of the thread from the point of view of other hobiests that have just as much to do with this hobby as the ones who would call on others to stear clear of them, I was as sincear and objective as I could be and tried to say things in a way as not to bash or disrespect anyone and if this topic is as big in the hobby as it sounds like it is then to deleat my post and pretend that none of this ever happened would do more harm than good for sure, we should try and come up w/ a plan to make it better rather than deny it exists, if this is not a place to try and brainstorm Ideas to further the hobby then I am in the wrong place anbd I really hope that isnt so, Respectfully,
Brandon Anderson
Owner- Reptist Exotics

[Phil Rea]

It has come to my attention that the above post may be edited as some may deem that it causes hard feelings, I would ask that you just try and leave it as complete as possible as it is a valid reply to the statements made in the body of the thread from the point of view of other hobiests that have just as much to do with this hobby as the ones who would call on others to stear clear of them, I was as sincear and objective as I could be and tried to say things in a way as not to bash or disrespect anyone and if this topic is as big in the hobby as it sounds like it is then to deleat my post and pretend that none of this ever happened would do more harm than good for sure, we should try and come up w/ a plan to make it better rather than deny it exists, if this is not a place to try and brainstorm Ideas to further the hobby then I am in the wrong place anbd I really hope that isnt so, Respectfully,
Brandon Anderson
Owner- Reptist Exotics

It's not hard feelings that are the problem Brandon, it's direct personal attacks and replies to posts that could cause arguments and bad feelings.

As Colin has already pointed out, we can't allow that, so if you have any greivances with any specific member then can I reiterate that you direct them via PM and not on the main forum. Thanks.

[Brandon Anderson]

no greivences

I have no greivences, in fact as I said before Ray has always been my favorite person in the feild he is in , I have seriously told many people of my respect for him and his work but telling people not to buy from anyone who has mislabled T's on their list is just not right and a direct attack on me and my buisness as I did have the T in question mislabled on my site,
{unbeknownst to me}how is anything Ive said any worse than that? and he was not warned I am sure, is it a double standard, or cause I am a newbie, cause I am not realy new to the hobby and believe I have put in enough hours to be as justified in my words as he is jusytified in trying to undermine my or any honest T dealers buisness because of a mislabled T, I am disapointed that he feels the way he does and as before I think he is great at what he does and I completely see his point however the hobby is growing close enough that most of the scammers and theivs are being sifted out usualy within just a few unsatisfactory transactions, noone that has been around for any legnth of time is just out to scam people, I am sorry but our lot are not a group of idiots and most of us are more than capable of sniffing out a potential predetor easily and efficiantly, if you do not think what Ray has said is as uncalled for as anything in my post then I am at a loss, and do not understand your logic, Respectfully, Brandon Anderson owner Reptist Exotics

[Phil Rea]

I have no greivences, in fact as I said before Ray has always been my favorite person in the feild he is in , I have seriously told many people of my respect for him and his work but telling people not to buy from anyone who has mislabled T's on their list is just not right and a direct attack on me and my buisness as I did have the T in question mislabled on my site,
{unbeknownst to me}how is anything Ive said any worse than that? and he was not warned I am sure, is it a double standard, or cause I am a newbie, cause I am not realy new to the hobby and believe I have put in enough hours to be as justified in my words as he is jusytified in trying to undermine my or any honest T dealers buisness because of a mislabled T, I am disapointed that he feels the way he does and as before I think he is great at what he does and I completely see his point however the hobby is growing close enough that most of the scammers and theivs are being sifted out usualy within just a few unsatisfactory transactions, noone that has been around for any legnth of time is just out to scam people, I am sorry but our lot are not a group of idiots and most of us are more than capable of sniffing out a potential predetor easily and efficiantly, if you do not think what Ray has said is as uncalled for as anything in my post then I am at a loss, and do not understand your logic, Respectfully, Brandon Anderson owner Reptist Exotics

No, it's not a direct attack on you or your business. You weren't mentioned anywhere in his post. In fact no names were mentioned.

By the way, it doesn't matter whether you're new on here or not. The rules apply to everyone (myself included).

[Colin D Wilson]

Brandon,
I can assure you that there are NO double standards and if anyone posts anything that is unwarranted and / or breaks any of the BTS rules and regs it is moderated and/or removed and the person is advised for the future.
I'm sorry you felt this to be the case here....it was not.

At no time were any comments directed at any person in particular, therefore as you can see all posts have remained intact and have not been edited.

Everybody has their right to make fair comments and whilst this is continuing and constructive (non slanderous) posts follow... the thread will remain open.

Colin

[Clinton Hogben]

Hi Brandon
I have just gone through the entire thread from the start to the finish and cannot see any point where you are mentioned directly as an uncaring dealer by anybody at all.
As a newbie to this forum i would not have had the foggiest about what dealers sell what spiders under what names unless " YOU YOURSELF " had not pointed out the error on your website and admitted to this mistake.
I admire you for pointing out the error and correcting it after all you could have kept quiet about it and 99% of novice buyers like me would be none the wiser.
And i fully support your right to respond against any unfair comments about yourself but i think you have read more into the original posting than anyone else did

Just relax we all know that without good breeders / suppliers / retailers this hobby would be next to impossible and as you point out you are still here years later so your customers must trust you

at the end of the day we are all human and the wrong name on a "T" is not the end of the world

Clinton

[Brandon Anderson]

thanks for the oppertunity

I appreciate your understanding in this matter and I will deffinately refrain from any more posts about the comments made previously in this thread, I realy think it will be more productive to discuss the toplc than just stop it in its tracks, I would have surely listened if I would have been aproached by Ray and told that I had some mistakes on my list, after all he is IMO one of the top 2 or 3 in the feild right now, and I would have deffinately made the changes as he advised, however I had no Idea any of it was not correct, anyone that knows me, knows that I try my best to be acurate as far as the species I list and I take the hobby seriously and love to see it grow and develop as it does continualy, I hope that Ray doesnt hold my point of view against me and am sorry if anything I have said is out of line, I realy tried to be as to the point and fair as I could and still get the point I had out to consider and I think that by maybe seeing how easily it is to really affect those of us that may be a little out of date or advertising something incorrectly and how ez it would be to just pop in and give someone a heads up, especialy if you have such strong feelings about those kind of things.

Maybe you are too busy in your chosen feild, Ray, to look at dealers lists and advise on any discrepancies there may be, and in the same token I have been much too busy on my end to search all the databases for name changes or info that you have ready access too (or know by heart) I know I could learn more from you than I could prob. teach you, but if you were to look I can guarantee there is something you could learn from me unless of course you thought me an idiot for not having heard of the latest name changes or new papers that have been published and updated my site accordingly

well it is morning and I have to go to work , I have been up w/ this thread and packing up the weekends orders for the whole night, now you got to admit there is some devotion to the hobby at work here as I am tired as hell and yet still excited about getting to work as I have new animals coming in and just as always happens I am anxious as a kid on x-mas at the thought of how the blood pythons are going to look, or maybe I'll get some P scrofa in w/ the 50 rose hairs as sometimes happens, scrofa are a much better looking T IMO, and they usualy end up at my house when they do get mixed in!!

I realy do hope that I havent overstepped my bounds on my first post as a new member of the BTS, but I also hope that maybe some can see from the dealers side a bit better of how we are sometimes only equiped w/ the info we have and have the time to research, Animals are my life and have been for a long long time and I wouldnt change a thing, although I realy would have rather not have had to defend myself from a person I have looked up to for as long as I have known him, and I realy hope you can accept my appologies Ray if anything in my posts portreys you as any less than one of the top minds we have in the hobby today, just dont forgett that it is a hobby shared by thousands and when your at the upper part of the hobby ladder things you say can have a stronger effect on those below you than you may realise, if you would have come to me a week ago and told me not to deal w/ xxxxx, I would have prob. heeded your advise, others prob would as well, I am off to work PEACE all and nice to meet those of you that I have met and hope to meet many more of you as well.
Brandon Anderson
owner:
Reptist Exotics
Phoenix Az.

[Colin D Wilson]

Thanks for that Brandon, have a prosperous day

Colin

[Ethan Atkiss]

Ssooo...

Another thought has occurred to me. I've seen this "Brazilian Pink" for sale at a number of places as P. platyomma or P. sp "platyomma". Now i know you can't be 100% sure with a visual ID but i feel it's fairly likely that these are all the same species. In a situation such as this where many dealers have an unidentified species mislabeled how do you go about correcting the ID without causing more ID confusion which may result in accidental hybrids? A lot of people have this T misidentified but at least they're all on the same page with "platyomma" as i haven't really seen it sold as anything else (in the US, that is). They may not know what it is but at least we all know what T we're talking about.

There is a long list of unidentified Pampho's. Is the Brazilian Pink "Pamphobeteus sp. #4? #2? #7?" I know i'm a relative n00b and maybe there's a protocol out there i'm not aware of but this has got me thinking. Perhaps there's an oppurtunity here for hobbyists and pro's alike to stay on top of this unfolding genus and try to avoid a situation like what we now have with Avicularia.

Thoughts? Somebody tell me where i'm wrong, lol.