New to BTS; Can anybody tell me about pampho's?

[Colin D Wilson]

Ethan,
In short....
There is a protocol, and it's a long one, Following the International Codes of Zoological and Botanical Nomenclature, taxonomists are working on describing new species and redescribing existing ones everyday though it takes time.
Comparing a specimen against a known type in a museum collection can take days, weeks or months, if the specimen doesn't key out to the known type then this could stretch to years as it is a new species to be described.
Problems like missing types, neccessary name changes due to "new found evidence" and moving species from one genus to another based on "evidence" all slow the process down immensely, all this time the original scientific name is still being used as the taxonomists cannot keep issuing updates on what little bit they've established or they'd spend as much time updating lists as they are on examining material.

There are many more factors that come into play here and Forum members with taxonomic experience could easily write thousands of words explaining them.

Colin

[Mark Pennell]

Another thought has occurred to me. I've seen this "Brazilian Pink" for sale at a number of places as P. platyomma or P. sp "platyomma". Now i know you can't be 100% sure with a visual ID but i feel it's fairly likely that these are all the same species. In a situation such as this where many dealers have an unidentified species mislabeled how do you go about correcting the ID without causing more ID confusion which may result in accidental hybrids? A lot of people have this T misidentified but at least they're all on the same page with "platyomma" as i haven't really seen it sold as anything else (in the US, that is). They may not know what it is but at least we all know what T we're talking about.

There is a long list of unidentified Pampho's. Is the Brazilian Pink "Pamphobeteus sp. #4? #2? #7?" I know i'm a relative n00b and maybe there's a protocol out there i'm not aware of but this has got me thinking. Perhaps there's an oppurtunity here for hobbyists and pro's alike to stay on top of this unfolding genus and try to avoid a situation like what we now have with Avicularia.

Thoughts? Somebody tell me where i'm wrong, lol.

Ethan
Yes indeed a long list of 1, 2 , 3 , 4 etc etc. Our own Theraphosidae Gallery has the same... http://thebts.co.uk/forums/gallery/index.php/cat/626

However labeled as such they can be kept separate and therefore not interbred thus diluting the species. Things are changing fast the Internet's effect on this hobby has been profound, not the down side stuff of course, but communication between those doing the field and revisions work.

If a few hundred years will be able to sit back and have a good laugh about the days when things were unidentified. Of course mind most of it would be extinct in the wild by then

Its only by working together, communicating, breaking down stigma and professional, social barriers, can we speed this work up.

Regards
Mark

[Ethan Atkiss]

Well it sounds like you guys are on top of things. My curiosity has been sated for the moment anyway. Thanks everybody for the info. It's funny though because after all this i still don't know what to label my Brazilian Pinks as... Pamphobeteus sp. #? If i ever try to breed them it'll be at least a couple years down the road so maybe by then this issue will be more sorted.

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi All

Firstly cheers Colin, Phil et al. for watching my back thank you, but any harsh replies I feel would have ben justifed.

Brendan, i have not forgotten about the Sericopelma skins, i am writing up the paper at present and you should know by the end of the year what sp it is.

Onto my post, well Brendan i must congratulate you on being the first DEALER EVER to respond to any of my dealer comments (and there have been a few), obviously a sign of someone with a conscience, I had not even seen your website, i wasnt even aware you were a dealer, and i certainly was not having a go directly at you, (i visit 3 spider websites and that is enough for me, and i dont trawl price lists) sorry if you feel bad but I wont apologise for my comments, and for the following reasons: (and i am not directing these comments at you).

1/ In this instance the name "platyoma" has been null and void so should not be used since 2001...........over 6 YEARS............how many years do dealers need to keep thier stock lists up to date 10? 15? 20? if the rest of the spider community can change their tank labels straight away why can't dealers?

2/ " we use the name "platyoma" to keep the species separate" good idea, its a shame all the dealers dont keep it to the same species i have seen 3 species being sold as this, i have also seen dealers advertise P. platyomma, as i valid species since Bertranis revision was done.

3/ In the same work Lasiodora cristata was removed from Lasiodora and Bertrani states it is most likely a NEW GENUS (relegating this species to the nameless ones) so someone decided to place it into the Genus Nhandu (which it blatantly obviously isnt) but everyone grabbed that and it is now called Nhandu cristata, another name which will have to be changed in the future. But yet this newer name change has been taken up .........why ?.......and not the origonal which would then be the "unidentifed species once sold as......."????

4/ Dont dealers have a responsibilty to thier customers to ensure they supply the correct species as to what they are advertising? especially at the prices some dealers charge? and that would mean keeping up to date on the taxonomic changes, and there isnt really that many when you think about how many sp are avaliable in the hobby.

5/ is it OK for dealers to flog anything to everybody at whatever they want to call it and no one say anything about it? I remeber when i was just starting in this hobby and how it hurt to discover the spiderling you paid a (comparative) fortune for was actually something else of a much lesser value.....its not nice.

6/ The world spider catalogue is no secret if you have been in the hobby for a couple of years, it is free to access, and as most dealers advertise on the internet they have no excuse for not reffering to it (unless of course it tells you things you dont want to hear like "no longer a valid species"),

7/ As Ethan has done he has asked a question on a (for want of the right words) "Grown Up" website. Websites like these are not just for helping new people and keeping in touch with others, they are also a place of information and there is a section for the latest name changes and taxonomical updates (Mark could this be an automatic newsletter dealers subscribe to?), dealers can also ask questions on the forum, the "Old Gaurd" are here to help/advise on all fronts, so no excuse there for not keeping species names on price lists up to date.

8/ If you are dealing in animals ANY ANIMAL you should know what you are talking about.

9/ Since i started "mouthing off" about dealers, many dealers (in the UK) have tidyied up thier acts, we no longer see Captive bred H. gigas or H. hercules most now sell "pet trade" Hysterocrates, well i would like to think it is because of my "mouthing off" but we now have one dealer in the UK who will ask the "Old Gaurd" as Mark Pennell puts it, what he has just imported and what he should sell things as, needless to say he is the biggest spider dealer in the UK because he is honest about what he sells.

There is more wanted to say on this matter but cannot rember, but like i said Brendan my comments are not directed at you.

I have taken your comments on board and am not offended by them.

Speak soon

Ray

[Ray Gabriel]

Another thought has occurred to me. I've seen this "Brazilian Pink" for sale at a number of places as P. platyomma or P. sp "platyomma". Now i know you can't be 100% sure with a visual ID but i feel it's fairly likely that these are all the same species. In a situation such as this where many dealers have an unidentified species mislabeled how do you go about correcting the ID without causing more ID confusion which may result in accidental hybrids? A lot of people have this T misidentified but at least they're all on the same page with "platyomma" as i haven't really seen it sold as anything else (in the US, that is). They may not know what it is but at least we all know what T we're talking about.

Trouble here is that there are 2 very similar species being sold as this "platyoma" (I have seen a third but one of the black Ecuador species) so unless you have a pair you might have fun trying to work out which of the species you actually have, and which one you are being offered to breed from/with. and side by side you can tell them on colour but on a photograph that is eitehr to light or to dark then the initial risk is one specimen being attatcked and possibly killed, the worst scenrio is hybrids.

There is a long list of unidentified Pampho's. Is the Brazilian Pink "Pamphobeteus sp. #4? #2? #7?" I know i'm a relative n00b and maybe there's a protocol out there i'm not aware of but this has got me thinking. Perhaps there's an oppurtunity here for hobbyists and pro's alike to stay on top of this unfolding genus and try to avoid a situation like what we now have with Avicularia.
Thoughts? Somebody tell me where i'm wrong, lol.

Yes there is a long list and Andy Ms comments would be greatly appreciated here as he has done more with Pamphos in the UK than anyone else.

I have done very little with Pampho's bred a couple of species reared a load photographed most (i think), but nothing taxonomically. the reason for this is that a friend is/was working on the genus revision, so no point in me getting involved, especially as he had years of experiance with them before me.

What many people will not realise is that up untill a few months ago, the BTS had one of the most pathetic galleries ever on any website, the main reason being was that the commitee and the "old gaurd" knew that most of the species in the hobby had never been properly identified, so we could not just put up a pic with the same name as everyone else was calling them as it would not be correct. That is why on the BTS gallery (which is a work in progress) there are loads of species labeled up as 1,2,3,4 Sp1 etc. You can go to other website and see some of the species with names..............but that is there choice.

The Avics are being worked on but it is a slow process if it is to be done correctly, many other groups of theraphosids are also being worked on, Sericopelma, Hysterocrates Phonyusa etc, but it is not just a case of examining one specimen reading a couple of papers and hey presto "new species" (like has been done many times in the past) there is a process for doing this, it is happening. You know i feel rather sorry for a lot of the people in other invert groups...........almost everything has been revised and is sorted....in theraphosid spiders so much is to be discovered that even a newbie with 2 spiders can discover new behavior in a "commonly" kept spider.............spider people like it or not are on the edge of real science...a really exciting time.......all it takes is for one person to get into a group of spiders and work on them for a few years and you could be the worlds no 1 for that group...................university educated or not.

In the back ground a few of the European (with some USA) "old gaurd" have been working/discussing........... "the project"...........its not ready yet..........but just watch out for it, it should start to make the species in the hobby much easier to identify so correct mates can be found for our breeding projects etc.

Later

Ray

[Brandon Anderson]

allright!!

Wow, thanks Ray, for understanding and for not holding it against me, it was kinda harsh, but you took it on the chin w/a smile and explained yourself verry well, my hat is off to you!!! I do see your point though and went ahead and added a link to WSC to the pricelist page of my site (why I didnt think of that before......) so now as I update my list if I have any questions, BAM its right there, I havent had time to go through it all so there may still be a mistake or two on my list, but within a week or so I should have it to the letter, I appreciate that point in the right direction as well as the sincerity and candor of pretty much all the advice and Ideas in this thread, from all who posted, you guys are great, glad to be a member!! PEACE, B.

[Taki Tsonis]

I'm also kind of taken aback about this thread. A while back I posted a pic of my Pamphobeteus asking for it to be ID'd (http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2581). Why is it that none of the senior members replied to my question? I then went on to get it ID'd as P platyomma by quite a few well respected and IMO very knowledgable T keepers/breeders. Now I read this whole thread and am totally disillusioned!
Here are pics of my T (which are 100% accurate btw, as photography is my profession and I ALWAYS make sure my T pics are as close to what they look like to the naked eye). So is it a P sp2 'ecuador' after all?
It is a female with a +- 12cm legspan

[Taki Tsonis]

And btw, please excuse my ignorance, but can anyone explain to me how to use the WSC correctly.

[Ethan Atkiss]

I do see your point though and went ahead and added a link to WSC to the pricelist page of my site (why I didnt think of that before......) so now as I update my list if I have any questions, BAM its right there...

That's a great idea. every online dealer should do this IMO. There are lots of buyers out there that couldn't give a hoot and won't wade through all the data. There are also some who do and will so for them this is a schweet tool.

[James Box]

Taki, while i personally can't shed any light on your T's identity, i just had to say that is an amazingly beautiful T!

[Taki Tsonis]

Thanks James
I am really falling for Pampo's, this one is one of my favourite T's in my collection and together with a P fortis that I also have and the "chicken spider' that I've read so much about, I'm becoming a huge Pamphobeteus fan

[James Box]

i once had a P fortis DOA...so i can't say i've ever properly owned a Pampho. one day, perhaps!
this sp Ecuador #2, if that's what it is, is definitely one to look for, though.

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Taki,

Well the most probably reason you did not get a reply to your first post is that
1/ Unless Andy M is online and looking we have no real Pampho specialist to speak of,
2/ many people will not comment on ID from a Photograph and i ahve no idea what the sp in your picture could be apart from probably a Pamphobeteus sp.

I am by no means well versed in Pamphos but here is my tuppence worth;

There is only 1 species of Pampho that anyone can clearly say is identifed and that is P. ultramarinus...................sorry to all who think they have had Pampho this and that but its the old story of "WHO COMPARED DEAD SPECIMENS WITH THE TYPE" or is it identifed by a photograph, i wish i was as brilliant as these people who can do that, but i have to examine types......maybe one day LOLOL

Some people might be calling out P.petersi my instant reply to that is was the type of P. vespertinus examined? (dont know as i have not seen the paper),

Others will be calling out P. antinous, again type specimen but have a read of the description of P. antinous, its closer in size to P. ultramarinus not these big black things being sold as P. antinous where the males are purple on the upper femur and the description says blue??? but was P. ultramarinus compared against any types? (i dont know havent seen the paper asking questions).

P. fortis, ferox, augusti, nigricolour..........all the same story, pet trade material has not been compared against type(s).............so who done the ID??

There are a laod of species from Ecuador which are basicly black as females and purple as males, no one knows if they are regonal varieties or different species which is why they have numbers (some even have place names).

There are 2 large brown as female Pamphobeteus sp "Ecuador" one is dark brown the other is light brown, one has a dark purple male the other a lighter purple male.

From my description above can ANYONE really identify what species they have, but believe me when i say that is EXACTLY how some people have "identifed" the species they have (and/or have for sale) ???? they have read the paper looked at a photograph and "BINGO" instant ID.

The fact that the spider in the photograph might have moulted in reallly damp conditions and came out darker is irrelevant, the fact that the spider in the paper is actually a different genus which will not be found untill the specimen is examined is also irrelevant.

Someone says its this species so it must be because there is a picture on thier website.

The Genus Pamphobeteus is in need of revision, I dont know if my friend is still working on the revision or not, but untill the revision is complete and published.......sorry to say no one will have a clue as to what species of Pamphobeteus they have.

Remember what i said earlier or in another post about studying a group ??? the UK needs a resident Pampho (Lasiodora, Xenesthis etc) person. (Amongst other groups)

Ray

[Rebecca Norris]

I'm so glad i keep ultramarinus LOL!

[Sonny Howdle]

My mum has loads of pamphos, even some shes not suposed to have. i will ask her to take pics of them if you like for you.