a blue P.subfusca????

[Ray Gabriel]

spiders will huddle together to prevent the loss of body heat since they are cold blooded this just tells us the lowland form likes warm conditions also from what i have been told the lowland form was collected around the knuckels range so its not un-known where they came from just needs some one to have a look around ,

hi Simon i have seen most Pokes huddle together even in heated cabinets,

I have seen group attack and feeding only once in a group of P. regalis....................are these a different form as ther are acting differently from the others?

Knuclkes = Kandy the capital of the HIghlands of Sri Lanka, the knuckles are no where near Matalae (and a lot higher in altitude) which is where the lowland form is reputed to be found (if there is any forest left).

Ray

[wesley flower]

in my experience in araneomorphs varients will breed but it is rare in the wild to come accross a hybrid spider. i have seen Amaurobius ferox female with a Amaurobius ferox var albidus male, these mated and had several sacs the off spring were mainly A. ferox with about 5% var albidus. this was in the wild natural habitat. under controled conditions i experimented with a female A. ferox and a male A. fenestrailis, all i can say is the male is no more, he did not even try courtship but entered her web at his own accord.
i have had about 12 yrs experience in observing the native spiders and only once in that time i have seen one possible hybrid the specimen was a Drassodes sp, thought to be a cupreus X lapidosus this specimen was a male, i under controlled conditions as he was a large male tried mating him with a female D. lapidosus, the mating went well but no sacs were produced. my theory was that the male was a hybrid mule thus not fertile.

from what i can see from the photos of the two P. subfusca in question. the 'high land' form looks to be a subadult male??????? and the 'lowland' a female either sub/adult???????
so how can you compare these two specimens. it is more than obvious that they are either of different gemder, or one being a sub species or possible th highland being either P. bara or P. uniformis as previousily quoted

[wesley flower]

I have seen group attack and feeding only once in a group of P. regalis....................are these a different form as ther are acting differently from the others?

can i please have more info regarding this statment please?
age?
gender of individuals? ratio of m/f?
size of community? number of specimens cohabiting?
are they related? how many bloodlines in the comunity?
thank you for your co-operation
wes

[Ray Gabriel]

can i please have more info regarding this statment please?

Previous BTS Journal article

age?

couple of months

gender of individuals? ratio of m/f?

unknown

size of community? number of specimens cohabiting?

80?90?+ though only a few were in the attack and communual feed

are they related?

yes

how many bloodlines in the comunity?

1

Ray

[wesley flower]

thanks ray

[Chris Sainsbury]

Where start different between two species ? A big different ? A small differente ?

You tell me I know jack about taxonomy or much else hence all my ??????????

Oh I didn't know that the temperature change the size that can reached adults tarantulas (both males and females)...

Oh I didn't know that I said that!
Here is an interesting article you could look up though regarding temperture and growth. :-

Das Washstum von Vogelspinnen in Abhängigkeit von Temperture und Luftfeuchtigkeit am Beispiel von Tapinauchenius gigas Caporiacco, 1954.....von Yannick Tylle
ARACHNE, 10. Jahrgang, Heft 5, September 2005 pages 4-12

I didn't know that temperatures change the color of tarantulas too...

Oh I didn't know I said that!

i have had lowland subfusca from 6 differant sacs (differant mothers only 2 had the same farther ) i have a full sac here now at n1's so far i have yet to see any that look differant from the same sac from lowland form this year i will have around 6 lowland female to breed then what ever come back from the males i have loaned out so i should have around 400 lowland slings this year if not more and i doubt any will look like highland but we will soon see , i have seen a good number of the slings that paul towler has produced and none have looked differant they all look the same

Ok so this means that by mating two the same "colour form" P.subfusca go on to produce all the same "colour form" spiderlings. Easy to understand had the same with S.peerboomi.
So by mating two different "Colour forms" you would get a mix? (Do genes work this way?)

i would like to see the moults and pictures of these so called lowland form from a wc highland female ?

I think after this thread we all would but I for one will live if we don't.

i have seen a variaty in colour in the highland but not in the lowland form

Can you post any pics of the variaty to be found or link to some pics?

groth rate dont always go on food and heat since i have had a p metallica male mature 23 months from sling he was fed the same as his brothers and the same temps they all matured around 14-16 months

Never said it did but it can I think play a part. See article above.

my lowland subfusca males all kept the same fed&temps the same all matured at differant times 11 to 16 months all big male my singa blues have also took around 16-18 months to mature temps high and lots of food ?? i have only had 1 male highland subfusca and he was kept the same as the lowland he matured at 11 months old and only small 5inch where my lowlands have all been big only 1 lowland male matured at 6.5 inch mybe bigger the others have been 7-7.5inch

Your compareing a range of "lowland" to just 1 "highland". How are you to know at this point that "highland forms" do not also grow so large and often? Maybe later on when more have matured you can or not say more definet?

spiders will huddle together to prevent the loss of body heat since they are cold blooded

Ok I can get this. but:-

this just tells us the lowland form likes warm conditions

For reasons stated by Mr Gabriel and I suspect other reasons it doesn't tell us this to any great certainty.

also from what i have been told the lowland form was collected around the knuckels range so its not un-known where they came from just needs some one to have a look around ,

Can't comment as I know not the area, but after reading a previous post it is a little strange for obvious reasons???

Hi Alex

@ Chris :
With all respect due to Thomas, I asked him for some photos of his 4 sister females. He accepted very kindly to send some when he can.

Thats good news. I hope it can clear some of this up.
That was interesting about the mating attempt, but I can't help feeling that the same kind of thing happens across the board where spiders are concerned. It is after all not all that uncommon for a female to refuse one male and mate with another different one a day or so later, even when it is 100% sure of all the same species are involved. Also with these being so closely related in the Poecilotheria sence of view (I just persume this btw) I can't see them being a different species as a reason for them not mating, after all isn't there a good number of Poecilotheria crosses knocking about in the hobby all ready? I have even heard of a subfusca x rufilata cross, so I find it hard to buy into that reason.

What would lead me to think both "forms" would not cross is the following thing

According to Simon they have been crossed though?:-

maybe he has mixed bloodline male lowland x highland since there is a couple of people who have crossed the 2 forms so there is not going to be 2 forms for long

I will leave it for him to say more though as I do not know anything about this lol.

All the best
Chris

[Phil Rea]

So by mating two different "Colour forms" you would get a mix? (Do genes work this way?)

All the best
Chris

If the colour change is caused by an allele inherited from each parent (assuming that both forms are the same species), then that's a plausible scenario Chris. It's an entirely random thing though.

You have to prove whether the gene is recessive/dominant/co-dominant etc.. etc.. by essentially doing what royal python morph breeders do and line breeding the offspring, which won't ever happen if the two forms won't mate in the first place.

[Ray Gabriel]

If the colour change is caused by an allele inherited from each parent (assuming that both forms are the same species), then that's a plausible scenario Chris. It's an entirely random thing though.

You have to prove whether the gene is recessive/dominant/co-dominant etc.. etc.. by essentially doing what royal python morph breeders do and line breeding the offspring, which won't ever happen if the two forms won't mate in the first place.

Have i said this here before? Green Tree Pythons from differnt Islands are very hard to breed, even different altitudes, but breed easy if from the same place, now they are still the same species but require different conditions to breed.Same as T blondi.

I wrote an article on temperature and relation to growth in a previous BTS journal, dont EVER try heating up P. rufilata to speed up the growth you ll kill them (voice of experiance).

Still no dead specimens for Andy

Ray

[Ray Gabriel]

Do any of the Check readers know who if anyone went to Sri Lanka and collected these? We know one person who supplied these but we also know he was not 100% acurate in his information about things?

just another lead it might be worth going down?


Years ago when P. subfusca came into the hobby they were very rare indeed, few people bought more than a couple, and captive breedings were almost non existant. I speculated at the time it was probably because the males and females were out of breeding sinc AND that it could also be because the males and females did not recognise each other.

There is proof that in Lycosids that females prefer to mate with males they have previously encountered before maturity, so could this be the reason why the dark and light ones are not mating? they are either out of sinc or dont recognise each other.

All it would really take is a couple of breedings and for people to do brother sister / mother son, matings for all of a sudden one form becomes more abundand and appears easier to breed...........because they are all related.

I have been to Sri Lanka twice looking for Poecilotheria smithi, finding holes in trees is hard enough, but finding holes in trees which contains a Poke is even harder, in one night we walked for around 7 hours in the jungle and found 1 specimen............if habitat is that hard to find communual living might be the way around this.

try rearing spiderlings of the light and dark forms together see what happens

Ray

[wesley flower]

could also be because the males and females did not recognise each other. Ray

really?????????? how is that then????????

There is proof that in Lycosids that females prefer to mate with males they have previously encountered before maturity, so could this be the reason why the dark and light ones are not mating? they are either out of sinc or dont recognise each other. Ray

i would love to see this

All it would really take is a couple of breedings and for people to do brother sister / mother son, matings for all of a sudden one form becomes more abundand and appears easier to breed...........because they are all related. Ray

breeding mutations???????? what you are doing there is selective breeding is it not? i thought Ray previously stated "i want normal spiders" a mutation is not by any standered normal, is it?

I have been to Sri Lanka twice looking for Poecilotheria smithi, finding holes in trees is hard enough, but finding holes in trees which contains a Poke is even harder, in one night we walked for around 7 hours in the jungle and found 1 specimen............if habitat is that hard to find communual living might be the way around this. Ray

you werent looking hard enough lol (sorry silly joke)

[Ray Gabriel]

really?????????? how is that then????????

I was making a sugestion not a statement, but maybe as they were out of sinc for breeding they were not giving of the correct pheremone or revieving the correct one, maybe it was in the wrong time of the season for the female to mate

i would love to see this

Will get back on this

breeding mutations???????? what you are doing there is selective breeding is it not? i thought Ray previously stated "i want normal spiders" a mutation is not by any standered normal, is it?

So where did I use the word mutations? dont try to put words into my mouth, where are the mutations comming from and where is your proof?

Selective breeding is using a specific specimen say large size and continuosely breeding only the largest specimens for size (or some other trait, which ever you prefer, colour, docility, fecundity etc)) maybe you should read up on that

mating a son to the mother or a brother sister cross is not "selective breeding" as it is more than likely the first mature male or the first mature pair.

So if you think this causes mutations i think you should go overseas, find a nice tarantuls colony stand in the middle and work out where all the males for breeding come from, (the clue is the distance to the next colony taking into account any geographical barriers like rivers, mountains etc). Please can you quote all your refarnces where it is proven that mother\son, brother/sister crosses cause mutations.

Yep i want normal spiders, and yes you are right a mutation is not normal, so where do the mutations come into it? Please post all your referances to this in theraphosid spiders please.

you werent looking hard enough lol (sorry silly joke)

You should try it

Ray

[wesley flower]

the males and females more than likly could recognize each other but as you say prob out of sinc. sorry i missunderstood what yuou were saying i though you were quoting fact.

you never used the word mutation. i did that. i perhaps should have used the word variation, but who to say that it is not a mute???
if you are in and line breeding and crossing high and lowland subfuscas to gat a variation and selectivly breeding the varient you want, this is termed selective breeding. could this be termed a mutation????

another question. hybridising is no kosher is it? there is speculation that low and highland subfuscas my not be of the same sp and may be as i have seen quoted P. bara or uniformis or possable an unclassified sp, so until the taxonomists are sure why ae you suggesting keep them in mixed groups?

i would really love to see the evidance for the Lycosids.

by the way i would really love to spend time researching in the feild but due to illness i am unable so i am green with envy that you have had the chance to do this.

dont take what i say personally, i am merely fishing for info to further my knoweledge

[Nicola Dolby]

I don't know if this helps but..........Looking at the abdominal markings on the pictures from Steevens I have an adult female lowland form. She likes temperatures around 23 degrees but also at 27-29 degrees, which is how I keep her. I tried to breed her with a male I got just before Christmas and her response was to blank him. He was so enthusiastic it was like he was on viagra but she ignored him for over a week before finally snapping at him. thats when I got him out. Was he lowland form, highland form, God knows. I put him back in and got the same again so I gave up. Then I put her through a simulated 'dry season' and in the penultimate week she moulted. However during all the time they were together they shared a constructed web/dirt sock she had built - it got so comical at one stage I thought of getting them his and hers door mats! The thing is how do you tell a male lowland/highland form without knowing where their parents come from? How can we be sure that the apparently 'notorious' difficulty in breeding these isn't down to the types they are? As for size, my female has lives at varying temps and she is only 5 inches in legspan. When I tried to breed mine it was at varying temperatures so that cannot be an excuse for lack of success. (23-29 degrees). One other thing. the fangs on my female are different than any other Poecilotheria fangs I have seen. most I've seen are like cat's claws in shape but these are more needle like, thin at the base and the tip. Also they seem a little over large compared to size, looking at the other pokies I've got. If anyone can help me understand any of this I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks

[wesley flower]

have you got a pic of the ventral chelicerae? if i could see it i may be able to shed some light on it for you

[Simon Goldsborough]

I don't know if this helps but..........Looking at the abdominal markings on the pictures from Steevens I have an adult female lowland form. She likes temperatures around 23 degrees but also at 27-29 degrees, which is how I keep her. I tried to breed her with a male I got just before Christmas and her response was to blank him. He was so enthusiastic it was like he was on viagra but she ignored him for over a week before finally snapping at him. thats when I got him out. Was he lowland form, highland form, God knows. I put him back in and got the same again so I gave up. Then I put her through a simulated 'dry season' and in the penultimate week she moulted. However during all the time they were together they shared a constructed web/dirt sock she had built - it got so comical at one stage I thought of getting them his and hers door mats! The thing is how do you tell a male lowland/highland form without knowing where their parents come from? How can we be sure that the apparently 'notorious' difficulty in breeding these isn't down to the types they are? As for size, my female has lives at varying temps and she is only 5 inches in legspan. When I tried to breed mine it was at varying temperatures so that cannot be an excuse for lack of success. (23-29 degrees). One other thing. the fangs on my female are different than any other Poecilotheria fangs I have seen. most I've seen are like cat's claws in shape but these are more needle like, thin at the base and the tip. Also they seem a little over large compared to size, looking at the other pokies I've got. If anyone can help me understand any of this I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks

your female wont breed at 5 inch shes not mature enough they need to be around 6-7 inch before they will produce sac as for matings i never saw and response from my females apart from a open furrow now for the males you can tell the 2 forms apart by the colour the lowland there is a thread on the t's store with pictures of my lowlands and someone put pictures of there highland males on to compare them 2 , so you should beable to tell tthe form you have if you look on there , you well might be right with the variaty of males out there could be down to why the highlands are quite hard to breed and produce less young i know there is mixed forms of subfusca out there because people have gone along with the person who started saying there is no differance in the 2 forms its just a subfusca well it might be a subfusca but clearly dont look or act like the highland so there for it should have been kept that way and never been said till more was found out about the 2 forms now it has lead to mixing the 2 forms that very well could be the reason for them being hard to breed where the lowland is proving very easy to get young from probably because there all pure what we have in the uk well all what have come from paul towler are pure lowland he breeds them without fail my females have laid too , i have had highland male in with a lowland female nd she wont mate with him took him out this morning put mal pots male in he starts tapping straight away the only response i saw from the female was her furrow open thats more than i saw with the highland male also i find that pokies will only mate once with a male if he incerts 1 sperm bulb she wont have any more to do with the male i have noticed this in all the pokies i have mated so i dont think they multipull mate with males some may take a few days to mate some do it straight way ,