a blue P.subfusca????

[Mark Pennell]

This thread is now locked.
An interesting debate that has yet again gone so far off topic now its pointless to leave it open.

I thank everyone one for their contributions to this thread and although heated at times it was progressive and educational.

If however someone has valid points to make in this thread I may re open it. Later in the day.

I blame no one person for this action of locking this thread. My apologies to both Toran and Chris, and it is unfortunate that they where the last users to post, they are not to blame either. Toran and Chris you have my PM's by now.

And of course apologise Soren, who has just posted while I was writing this - if you let me know when you are ready to post your images I will re open this thread.

Regards
Mark Pennell
BTS IT Dept
Administrator.

RULES
REALNAMES

[Søren Rafn]

Just wanted to chime in here.

I have "highland" material here which I have mated and bred numerous time. They are all offspring from the same import, but consist of large dark specimens which looks identical with "lowland" material, and smaller more mottled specimens which we could call "highland" material. Funny enough there were also collected two almost uniformly black specimen at the same locality, they sadly didn't breed in captivity and was later pickled when deceased.

So de facto we have here the example of three interspecific variations of subfusca collected in one field. The interesting bit is that the "highland" and "lowland" forms appeared mixed in every egg sac ... non regarding the males affinity ... however - no uniform blacks has been encountered so far.

I once mentioned that the type of P. bara were the largest recorded P. subfusca and that it was found in the lowland, fact is that "P. bara" is from the Knuckles range (which is not lowland at all). Another fact is that the "lowland" species in the trade to my knowledge is not from the Knuckles Range ... and not from the lowland at all. Actually no variation of P. subfusca can be termed "lowland" as none are found below the foot hills, but that is another story ...

The reluctance to accept that species are variable is interesting as interspecific variation is one of the key concept of Darwins evolutionary theory. Also people mention that color is the main identification feautre, which is nonsense. Fact is that leg patterns (not colors) can be used in field identification, but that the combined characters of embolus shape and keels, spermathecae, stridulating organ morphology, femoral fringes, LI/LIV relations and LI/carapace relations with a few others are the main distinguishing characters => morphological taxonomy. In this regard it appears that "highland" and "lowland" are the same, which points to the fact that we have to interbreedable, sympatric forms of one species - namely P. subfusca.

The only specimens that are not fitting in this scheme is the uniform black ones, but whether that is because they are freaks of nature, or new species or rare mutations only time will tell.

Since it appears that both forms are present in one eggsac I see no reason to keep the forms seperate, except if one wants to empathise the different forms in line breeding. One to his own.

Yes - I promise to take the time to photograph the two forms (from the same plateau) and the pickled black ones ... and post links to the pictures here

Regards
Søren

[Toran Tanner]

Hi Mr Toran or is it T?


It seems to me that you have still missed out on some good discussion as you are about to see, as I do not think you have read this entire thread and instead just skipped though it without paying any real attention. If you had then I don't think you would have said the following:-



Firstly All what I said about the P. subfusca X P. rufilata was (and I quote):-
(post 24 I believe)

and
(post 51 I believe near the bottom)

At NO point did I, or indeed even suggest that the breeding was the product of Mr Goldsborough. Sure I fully admit that I knew dam well that Mr Goldsborough would know what I was talking about, and I knew dam well that the remarks would anoy him somewhat (I have my reasons) but that is as far as I went with the topic.
All the rest of the Information was provided by Mr Goldsborough himself including that he was responsible for the breeding. I have and had NO part in this and can NOT be blamed for bad reading on his and now it seems your side.


And if you can find one single post where I have said this I will personely give you a strawberry flavour bubble gum!....

Oh you can't?.... Well I guess I get to keep my strawberry flavour bubble gum all my self.! How lucky can one guy be?



You think I care either way if he questions it or not? You think I care he has loads on his hands?
Come on I don't give him that much thought and certainly not enough to care for such matters.

So Mr Toran or Mr T whichever? (so much for the real names idea)

Please if you are going to show grievance over my posts please do it showing facts you can see rather than one you want to see but don't exist.

BTW By looking at my user name, you will see it is Chris Sainsbury or Mr Sainsbury if you like. My user name of Tescos does not go on this board as Mr Pennell said he wants it to me a real name forum.

All the best
Chris

Sorry chris I didn't realize that when I posted it. I am glad you were able to dissect that from my from my whole post. And tear this thread further from the point of it, that being ? next you'll be pointing out my grammer right.

This quote

And saying simon should have known it was a rufilata will not be accepted

was for future ref so you could not say that and have it count...

as for

grievance

you are the one expressing this with every post you have dissected.

again

Sure I fully admit that I knew dam well that Mr Goldsborough would know what I was talking about, and I knew dam well that the remarks would anoy him somewhat (I have my reasons) but that is as far as I went with the topic.

again I say a low blow and you admit to doing it...

Come on I don't give him that much thought and certainly not enough to care for such matters.

you must do, you brought it up a few times...

/QUOTE] Please if you are going to show grievance over my posts please do it showing facts you can see rather than one you want to see but don't exist.

could you do the same as I have read this whole thread Oh hold on I'll grab that other quote you made just hang on





got it

as I do not think you have read this entire thread and instead just skipped though it without paying any real attention. If you had then I don't think you would have said the following:-

anyhow I am done showing you how easy it is to dissect something to make a false points.
So lose your attitude and be apart of a community not pulling low blows and working together .

IN ending I believe in Highlands and Lowlands and I think it would be smart of everyone to keep them seperate till we know more.

My 2 cents

[Chris Sainsbury]

Nice one Mr Pennell. Although I shouldn't really have brought that up like I did sorry for that. It is much nicer to know who you are talking to though.
All the best
Chris

[Mark Pennell]

So Mr Toran or Mr T whichever? (so much for the real names idea)

"Actually a rather good point, and this has been addressed. I hold my hand up to this one, its been on the cards to update everyone's name. This is now done and I remind everyone of the real name policy."

Please contact me to update there usernames.


Regards
Mark

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi Mr Toran or is it T?

well well well. I have missed out on some good discussion.

It seems to me that you have still missed out on some good discussion as you are about to see, as I do not think you have read this entire thread and instead just skipped though it without paying any real attention. If you had then I don't think you would have said the following:-

1. Tesco I think using the subfusca/ rufilata thing is a low blow as I am sure who ever told you about it might have if not, should have mentioned that it was not done on purpose.

Firstly All what I said about the P. subfusca X P. rufilata was (and I quote):-

Yes that would be almost as bad as cross breeding P. rufilata with P. subfusca wouldn't it!!!!

(post 24 I believe)

and

I can't see them being a different species as a reason for them not mating, after all isn't there a good number of Poecilotheria crosses knocking about in the hobby all ready? I have even heard of a subfusca x rufilata cross, so I find it hard to buy into that reason.

(post 51 I believe near the bottom)

At NO point did I, or indeed even suggest that the breeding was the product of Mr Goldsborough. Sure I fully admit that I knew dam well that Mr Goldsborough would know what I was talking about, and I knew dam well that the remarks would anoy him somewhat (I have my reasons) but that is as far as I went with the topic.
All the rest of the Information was provided by Mr Goldsborough himself including that he was responsible for the breeding. I have and had NO part in this and can NOT be blamed for bad reading on his and now it seems your side.

And saying simon should have known it was a rufilata will not be accepted

And if you can find one single post where I have said this I will personely give you a strawberry flavour bubble gum!....

Oh you can't?.... Well I guess I get to keep my strawberry flavour bubble gum all my self.! How lucky can one guy be?

As he has loads on his hands when it comes to breeding, so when some one says hey I will send you a subie male is he supposed to question it. should have too.

You think I care either way if he questions it or not? You think I care he has loads on his hands?
Come on I don't give him that much thought and certainly not enough to care for such matters.

So Mr Toran or Mr T whichever? (so much for the real names idea)

Please if you are going to show grievance over my posts please do it showing facts you can see rather than one you want to see but don't exist.

BTW By looking at my user name, you will see it is Chris Sainsbury or Mr Sainsbury if you like. My user name of Tescos does not go on this board as Mr Pennell said he wants it to me a real name forum.

All the best
Chris

[wesley flower]

no matey i cant speak spanish, i done it for a few years at school, so it is very basic.
i am not as interested in the New world species as i am the old world, (as you know i approached you about the revision of Hysterocrates)

[Toran Tanner]

well well well. I have missed out on some good discussion. All I have to say is two things.

1. Tesco I think using the subfusca/ rufilata thing is a low blow as I am sure who ever told you about it might have if not, should have mentioned that it was not done on purpose.
And saying simon should have known it was a rufilata will not be accepted. As he has loads on his hands when it comes to breeding, so when some one says hey I will send you a subie male is he supposed to question it. shouldn't have too.

2. As far as the 'Lowland/highland' I am on the same side as simon I have seen his subie's and we have talked about them. I have much respect for him and his respect for his animals. I say what would be wrong with everyone holding back on trying to breed Highland with lowlands till we know or we may just destroy a 2 true specie's if we are wrong. I will never put a Highland with a Lowland till I know the are or aren't the same. I would rather be safe then sorry.

This is just the problem dealers and common names...

[Ray Gabriel]

i was not at all getting at that i would challenge Andys findings, but i would like to study and further my knoweledge of this great genus, and i love finding things out for myself and working for what i know, instead of letting smeone else do the work and read it in a book i have always dreamt of studying spiders on a high level, and due to illness i was unable to go to uni etc so i am stuck at home still wanting to do this with great enthusiasm.

Acanthoscurria need looking into no one has done that, dont know of anyone who will neither.

Hablar espanol?

Ray

[Ray Gabriel]

..and apparently this one

Remind me Phil and ill email you the paper, its P. formosa, worst thing is the type is in a "private colelction" and so is not accessable to the Western World, 1 Mygalomorph researcher in India i am in communication with cannot get access to it neither, and thats a Dr, its all down to some hierachy and class thing.

So unless you go by the paper (which BTW regards the abdomen as a taxonomical feature) and use the illustrations to synonymise it with P. formosa this sp will have to stay untill someone can examine the type................. OH and no types were examined and one of the features they use is a variable and the dont count the variation..........it was not peer reviewed (another group who dont think there is anyone else above them...........REALLY the dont..)

Ray

[wesley flower]

i was not at all getting at that i would challenge Andys findings, but i would like to study and further my knoweledge of this great genus, and i love finding things out for myself and working for what i know, instead of letting smeone else do the work and read it in a book i have always dreamt of studying spiders on a high level, and due to illness i was unable to go to uni etc so i am stuck at home still wanting to do this with great enthusiasm.

[Mark Pennell]

can i please have the link to this site

http://research.amnh.org/entomology/spiders/catalog/index.html

i would really love to look over the genus, as there is really nothing stopping me having a go.
would this be possible?????????how would i contact Andy to ask promission to loan his deads?????

NO absolutely nothing! go for it!

Please bare in mind Andrew has been working on project for over 6 years and has few dozen field trips under his belt as well. Not to mention a fair bit odd world hopping to visit various museums and collections.

This has, and is a still mammoth undertaking and the reason the book is not yet out, and that more information and updates are still being gathered....

So even with the contacts that Andrew has managed to acquire in his 20 years plus experience in theraphosidae taxonomy (note: This is what I think Ray was referencing too!)

This has still been one of the most challenging and extensive projects he or anyone has yet undertaken, and of course it does not help that this is one of the more difficult genus to work on.

Will it be a ultimate or definitive guide - well no, there can never be such a thing. However it will be many years down the road until someone can come up with anything better.


Regards
Mark

P.S It more than just a taxo book!

[Nick L]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Gabriel
the powers that be are saying there will be NO subspecies in Theraphosid spiders.................ok for the rest of the natural world but not theraphosids

that is stupid

The definition of a 'species' is difficult enough -- look up 'ring species' as a classic example of how complex it can be. Subspecies are a nice idea and DO work in some instance but overall they just add 'clutter' and there is a tendancy to move away from using them these days in most branches of zoology. Botanical classification is a complete nightmare with sub-species, micro-species, species-complexes, not to mention varieties, forms and cultivars, etc. ... You have to draw the line somewhere with your 'base classification' -- for me that's the 'species'.

Nick

[wesley flower]

..and apparently this one

thanks Phil i bloody love this site lol

[wesley flower]

when it is published elsewhere and the information is avaliable on the net = World Spider Catalogue,

can i please have the link to this site

the powers that be are saying there will be NO subspecies in Theraphosid spiders.................ok for the rest of the natural world but not theraphosids

that is stupid

Wouldnt you need to get 20+ years of theraphosid taxonomy under your belt and examine all the Poecilotheria specimens that Andy has done (and is still doing, and get all the input from the breeders/collectors etc first) before you could give a waranted comparison?

i have 11yrs experience in looking at and keeping and observing Theraphosid and 12+yrs experience in native araneomorphs. i would say i have a good enough understanding of spider anatomy to do this. who said you need 20 yrs experiance????
i would really love to look over the genus, as there is really nothing stopping me having a go.
would this be possible?????????how would i contact Andy to ask promission to loan his deads?????