a blue P.subfusca????

[Chris Sainsbury]

not anoyed mate because i know who told you i wont loose any sleep over it so you will have to find some other way to wind me up LOL , just shows who i can trust ,

If only that was a true statement lol

[Simon Goldsborough]

You Never told or mentioned anything about this breeding to me until now Simon. But yes I did know about it anyway but was not my news to say anything about it. I won't say my source of this except to keep in the Starwars theme of things, that many Bothan's died bringing this information to me! Besides I enjoy the thought of you wondering about this and being I suspect a little anoyed.

You need to see what I quoted to understand this comment:-

but so you don't have to back track too much, I was refering to where you said:-


Cheers for the extra infos though.

Chris

not anoyed mate because i know who told you i wont loose any sleep over it so you will have to find some other way to wind me up LOL , just shows who i can trust ,

[wesley flower]

colour is definitely not a reliable taxonomical tool.

sorry to quote you phil i know you are not the first to say this, but i have read that the main way to distinguish species of poecilotheria being the ventral leg markings etc, if this is not using colour and patterning what is?

i would love to get a chance to go over some deads of the Poecilotheria genus remove all the pile hair etc and have someone id them, ( i would love to give it a go at this myself if anyone is perpared to send me some)

so if i am not mistaken.........colourings and patterning are a taxonomic tool (along with alot of other factors)

if i am wrong (a few beers down the road) can someone please explain

[Chris Sainsbury]

sorry but it had to come at some point even if it is rather crap.

Which one are you? (come on think about it)

[Phil Rea]

Well I am neither an elder, old guard, nor strictly speaking a newbie I guess, but what I will say in agreement with the statements in this thread is that colour is definitely not a reliable taxonomical tool.

A good example is the true spider A. diadematus. They can vary from red to black, brown to beige. They are still the same species though.

I keep P. subfusca but have never kept any of the so called lowland form, so I can't comment on collection loci/temps/behaviour/morphology for these.

We can all say this and that, but until they are examined by a taxonomist and/or subjected to DNA testing, then we will be none the wiser.

[Chris Sainsbury]

how did you here about the rufilata x subfusca you make out like i told you about them there was 2 people who fell to..... etc, etc, etc

You Never told or mentioned anything about this breeding to me until now Simon. But yes I did know about it anyway but was not my news to say anything about it. I won't say my source of this except to keep in the Starwars theme of things, that many Bothan's died bringing this information to me! Besides I enjoy the thought of you wondering about this and being I suspect a little anoyed.

You need to see what I quoted to understand this comment:-

According to Simon they have been crossed though?

but so you don't have to back track too much, I was refering to where you said:-

maybe he has mixed bloodline male lowland x highland since there is a couple of people who have crossed the 2 forms so there is not going to be 2 forms for long i will never mix the 2 forms since , if there can be 2 forms of other speices why not subfusca there markins are clearly not the same ??

Cheers for the extra infos though.

Chris

[paul towler]

blue subfusca,,,lol,,,

i to have been following this thread with interest , i dont know where the blue comes in but as i have probly been the most prolific breeder of this so called lowland form in the uk i feel i must have a say in this thread, i will say this all 6 of my original stock came from SLOVKIA bought as slings in september 2004 all from 2 diff females wild cought 3 from each female maturing into 4 females 2 males so far 6 eggsacks 1 to a very imature female small sack but spoilt as the female did not rotate the sack ,so it was spoilt , the next sack was from another female and produced 88 slings from 93 eggs, the next sack was produced at 100 deg,f still with the male in tank, witch was spoilt ,the next 2 were good as well and as of boxing day i have a new sack ,,looks good so far ,,all good sacks left whith females for about 5 weeks n,2s when opened all kept in high humidity most of the time kept in the same shed as other pokeis but slightly cooler part of shed, but as mal said will web in and stop feeding when to cold or to dry , i have no comunial groups as adults , i have only witnesed one female atack on a mature male and that was in the last 3 months ,my own fault i had a male mature but no female adult to put him to, so i put him in with a subadult female she took off one of his palps and one leg, he is still ok and doing sperm webs ,the female has since molted. i bought these as subfusca ,but the person i bought them from started calling them lowland?? so i did the same??? as to weather there are 2 forms i will leave that to people who know there stuff, to me its a spider i like high or low form , and ray you have one of my first breeding of subfusca i gave you one at the bts show last year along with a singerpore blue, it was about 3"or more leg span as to the gender male or female ???? hope this gets sorted soon ,it would be great for there to be another sort of pokei , but lets wait and see ??????????????????????????????????

[Malcolm Potts]

Hi Malcolm, welcome to the forum, I was wondering when you'd appear in this thread
I purchased the Klugi from you last year - she's still her old mechanical self.

You refer to the communal benefits, is this something you've noted in adults too?

I have only kept communal subfusca from slings - I have never been able to try this from adults - I can't even imagine how much 15 adult subfusca would cost...lol. However I have reared most (but not all) Poec species successfully from sling to adult communally.

The best I have found for this being subfusca/formosa/fasciata and rufilata. Interestingly - I have not been able to acheive this in several attempts with regalis without fighting.

I have kept adult Poec. males and females together communally in single sex groups- but once you introduce a male to a communal group of females - one female will become dominant - and will kill all other memebers unless you separate them.

Mal.

[Peter Lacey]

Hi Malcolm, welcome to the forum, I was wondering when you'd appear in this thread
I purchased the Klugi from you last year - she's still her old mechanical self.

You refer to the communal benefits, is this something you've noted in adults too?

[Malcolm Potts]

Excellent thread - very interesting.

I have specimens from both "forms" - and I have posted many pictures on the forums. I have also used the terms lowland and highland whilst posting these pictures - purely because that is the names I came by these spiders. I cannot comment further on this as I don't know their original source location. Plus I am in no way an expert - I just like these spiders and own quite a few....lol.

I will now post some of my own peronal observations.

I have many subfusca all bought as slings - including some communal groups of up to 15 individuals - mainly of the "lowland" form. Interestingly - by far the most expensive of which are a couple of "normal" slings bought from Ray - dealers making money???

There seems to be a great lack of information about captive care of P.subfusca. (or perhaps I am looking in the wrong places?) My main sources are BTS journals and the articles written by Jacobi in Arachnoculture.

I have tried keeping "lowland" subfusca in cool humid conditions as described by Jacobi - and they go into "hibernation" - they almost stop feeding all together and burry under the peat - huddled together in a ball. "Normal" form subfusca that I keep do not do this - and feed freely and behave like any other Poec. Once kept at higher temperatures these "lowland" subfusca - also behave normally and feed.

I have also tried to keep "normal" form subfusca at higher temps and dryer - with disasterous consequences - death.

So I am not saying that these are two different species - and I only use the terms "highland" and "lowland" as that is what I aquired them as. However, my own experiences with these two differently marked spiders is that they require different husbandry - and do not do well when their conditions are reversed.

This could just be due to adaptation to captivity -or could indicate a difference between the spiders?? I don't claim to know.

I have also noted that there is very little variation in markings on the "lowland" form with all members of my groups looking almost identical, even very little difference between male and female dorsally. Females having whiter knees.

Another observation whilst keeping subfusca - is that they seem to thrive better whilst kept communally than when kept individually.

I have a communal group of adult male "lowland form" subfusca - if you would like any for study Ray?? but no-one is getting any of my ladies until they die of old age.

Mal.

[Mark Pennell]

Ray
Wise words young padiwan, the force is indeed strong with you!



Mark
P.S Nice use of the word old guard, can I claim that as my invention - please

[wesley flower]

ray your a bloody idiot lmao (ment as a joke nothing personal you might actually be a nice chap)

[Ray Gabriel]

Ok lets go back to the very beggining and trace the story so far:

Are you sitting comfortably? then i will beginn:

Once Upon a Time in a Galaxy Far, Far away
There lived a trader in the offspring of the goddess Arachnae
This trader made friends throughout the Galaxy and was thought good by many people.
Then slowly it was discovered that many of the offspring off Arachnae sold by this trader were not as they were supposed to be, rare Haplopelma costale were found to be Haplopelma “sp” (possibly Bach Ma, desired by some but not others, and certainly not as valuable as H. costale) but when this was pointed out to the trader no recompense was ever offered!, the traders price list was found to be the same as to traders as to the public, and not reduced as should be to other traders, so the other traders could not profit from buying from the trader, the trader started claiming that confirmed sexed females were turning into males so when asked to return the males and a share of any resulting young from the males activities the trader vanished, only to reappear claiming the male had died but also asking where the replacement female was? And even after a replacement female was given no recompense or replacement male was surrendered. At this same time as many of the traders friends were suddenly awakening to the traders miss dealings the trader started to sell more offspring of the goddess arachnae this time Monocentrophus balfouri for 250 Euros each, many people found this to be to much money so did not buy any, but after a couple of months the people were surprised to discover that the REAL price for these M. balfouri should only have been 150 Euros each, and that the trader was once again trying to pull a fast one on the people even his friends and chucking a 100Euro mark up on each spiderling. Deciding enough was enough and his greed was getting to much his friends, decided the friendship was over and they would not deal with the trader anymore as they felt he was not to be trusted. Their new beliefs about trusting the trader were realised when they found on a website another trader had blacklisted him. If anyone knows of any other of the miss deads of this trader please let us all know so we can all be fully aware. The trader slowly started fading into the back ground as fewer and fewer people continued to trade with him but before he vanished rubbing his lobes he decided on one last sale.

Meantime on another planet called Arachnoboards, people were asking the usual questions and members of the “old guard” (the experienced people in between the new people and the elders) would reply with the knowledge they had gained. One newbie asked which one was the largest of the Poecilotheria. old guard Soren replied, explaining that P. subfusca was the largest but at that time had been wrongly identified as P. bara ( which had previously been synonymised by the elder Peter Kirk), and came from the lowland forests of the planet Sri Lanka. Further attempts to find this species in its old forests around Matale were attempted by elders and old guard alike, even talking with the wood cutters they found that they had not been seen for many years and that the forests they once lived in were mostly no more, the closest forests had P. fasciata, going all the way anti clockwise to the hot tropical area where P. fasciata is replaced by P. ornata, and then further round the highlands in the centre until P. ornata was replaced by P. pedersenni (named after another of the old guard who had been to Sri Lanka many times and was known as a great field worker).

Many of the newbies asked if this big form still existed, and was available for the newbies to keep and nurture. And this is where either by good luck or coincidence the trader made what appears to be his final fare well. On the last few pricelists posted up by the trader after the thread on plant arachnoboards where old guard Soren had helped the newbie, suddenly P. subfusca “lowland form” appeared. Many of the old guard were suspicious of this straight away, as they remembered the earlier dealings of the trader, and did not trust him, the difference was said to be that the “lowland form” was lighter than the “normal” form of P. subfusca, but many of the old guard, people like Nicolai Pedersenn, Thomas Froik who had seen P. subfusca in the wild (and were amongst the first to have young of them knew that both light and dark forms were found in the same eggsac) tried to tell this to the newbies but were ignored. All they wanted to do was pass on their advice as they frequently did, but the newbies claimed to know better, many had only heard of the “Red Poecilotheria” a ruse to make money which had been replicated by elder Gallon and old guard Gabriel using the juice from the root of the beet, and found to be false the newbies had heard the fable of the “bleu P. ornata” which was then shown to be closer to the real thing by Smith the elder, who also pointed out that the taxonomical feature was having a dot on the femur NOT the size of the dot. Many of these things upset the newbies as either in their attempts to show their knowledge or gain wealth these fakes were disproved.

But alas neither the elders or the old guard could convince the newbies they were mistaken, and friction rose between them, many of the newbies decided this must be a new species as it was a different colour (forgetting that colour is not a txonomical tool) some even tried to claim that Kirk the elder was mistaken in his examination and comparison of the two holotypes of P. bara and P. subfusca, and must have missed seeing that both had completely dark undersides of the legs, when he examined them in the research area of the Natural History Museum in the ancient city of Londinium. This made some of the old guard sad, as they deemed some of the newbies as friends and could see this friendship slipping away. But Smith the elder intervened and said ” let me see dead specimens and if it is new I will name it in your honour” so the old guard pulled together and found they had dead specimens of the dark form and supplied these to Smith the elder in an attempt to try to heal the rift between the newbies and the old guard, but strangely enough no specimens of the reputed “lowland” form seemed to appear. Rumour went that this Lowland form was from the knuckles forested mountains, which are next to Kandy the Capital of the central highlands of Sri Lanka and many miles away from the lowland area of Matale. And still no offers of “lowland” form are forth coming.

To this day the last poison from the trader is still splitting the old guard and the newbies, no one has heard from the trader in a long time and many feel this is a good thing. The old guard are still sorrowfull about their newbie friends as they can see that when this is resolved. The newbies will hide away in their shame, and shrink from the friendship of the old guard just as those of the “blue P. ornate” seem to have done.

But the story will not end here as the findings of Smith the elder have yet to be revealed, so until then………………….

TO BE CONTINUED

[wesley flower]

Thomas Froik has pointed out you get both colour forms from the same eggsacRay

was the male seen? if so was he the same varient as the female?

Selective breeding is the same as line brreding = breeding for a specific chosen by man trait Ray

true line breeding is a form of selective breeding but close relatives are not used ie not mother-son or sibling mmatings more cousins and auntie- nephew etc

A Kosh is a simple style of club normally used for mugging people i dont understand what you are saying.Ray

sorry kosher is a hebrew word meaning fit to describe a peice of food as 'fit' to eat (jewish dietry laws). i used the word to illustrate that crossing is not good and possible against the law of nature in some humans eyes.

OK here goes, the people who are saying its different are the ones who spent alot of money on these as they were told they were something different.

The people who are saying they are not different are the people who have had subfusca for years, examined dead specimens, compared specimens against the type, and who have been in the field collecting them.

Who would you believe?Ray

prehaps people who are oppinionating should state that and not say as if fact.

And who is saying this?Ray

i read it somewhere whilst doing some research not too sure where.

Now then, for those people that (being the instant Poecilotheria experts they are, as this is not the first time i have heard this, and this is not directed at you wesley) should know better, the TYPE of P. bara was examined by Peter Kirk (another person who has studied Poecilotheria for years and collected in the field etc) and found to be the SAME and ill say it again again SAME species as P. subfusca so they were synonymised.

Now this means that P. bara can NEVER be a species again, so why are some MORONS trying to lead people on by saying it is still valid????? (again not you Wesley)Ray

thank you ray

Cannot find/ cant be assed looking more, it was in an article in the New York Times? October 2003 I think, try google ing Lycosa mate preferance Ray

i will have a look later thanks

[Nicola Dolby]

Thanks Alexandre!