a blue P.subfusca????

[Ray Gabriel]

Do any of the Check readers know who if anyone went to Sri Lanka and collected these? We know one person who supplied these but we also know he was not 100% acurate in his information about things?

just another lead it might be worth going down?


Years ago when P. subfusca came into the hobby they were very rare indeed, few people bought more than a couple, and captive breedings were almost non existant. I speculated at the time it was probably because the males and females were out of breeding sinc AND that it could also be because the males and females did not recognise each other.

There is proof that in Lycosids that females prefer to mate with males they have previously encountered before maturity, so could this be the reason why the dark and light ones are not mating? they are either out of sinc or dont recognise each other.

All it would really take is a couple of breedings and for people to do brother sister / mother son, matings for all of a sudden one form becomes more abundand and appears easier to breed...........because they are all related.

I have been to Sri Lanka twice looking for Poecilotheria smithi, finding holes in trees is hard enough, but finding holes in trees which contains a Poke is even harder, in one night we walked for around 7 hours in the jungle and found 1 specimen............if habitat is that hard to find communual living might be the way around this.

try rearing spiderlings of the light and dark forms together see what happens

Ray

[Ray Gabriel]

If the colour change is caused by an allele inherited from each parent (assuming that both forms are the same species), then that's a plausible scenario Chris. It's an entirely random thing though.

You have to prove whether the gene is recessive/dominant/co-dominant etc.. etc.. by essentially doing what royal python morph breeders do and line breeding the offspring, which won't ever happen if the two forms won't mate in the first place.

Have i said this here before? Green Tree Pythons from differnt Islands are very hard to breed, even different altitudes, but breed easy if from the same place, now they are still the same species but require different conditions to breed.Same as T blondi.

I wrote an article on temperature and relation to growth in a previous BTS journal, dont EVER try heating up P. rufilata to speed up the growth you ll kill them (voice of experiance).

Still no dead specimens for Andy

Ray

[Phil Rea]

So by mating two different "Colour forms" you would get a mix? (Do genes work this way?)

All the best
Chris

If the colour change is caused by an allele inherited from each parent (assuming that both forms are the same species), then that's a plausible scenario Chris. It's an entirely random thing though.

You have to prove whether the gene is recessive/dominant/co-dominant etc.. etc.. by essentially doing what royal python morph breeders do and line breeding the offspring, which won't ever happen if the two forms won't mate in the first place.

[Chris Sainsbury]

Where start different between two species ? A big different ? A small differente ?

You tell me I know jack about taxonomy or much else hence all my ??????????

Oh I didn't know that the temperature change the size that can reached adults tarantulas (both males and females)...

Oh I didn't know that I said that!
Here is an interesting article you could look up though regarding temperture and growth. :-

Das Washstum von Vogelspinnen in Abhängigkeit von Temperture und Luftfeuchtigkeit am Beispiel von Tapinauchenius gigas Caporiacco, 1954.....von Yannick Tylle
ARACHNE, 10. Jahrgang, Heft 5, September 2005 pages 4-12

I didn't know that temperatures change the color of tarantulas too...

Oh I didn't know I said that!

i have had lowland subfusca from 6 differant sacs (differant mothers only 2 had the same farther ) i have a full sac here now at n1's so far i have yet to see any that look differant from the same sac from lowland form this year i will have around 6 lowland female to breed then what ever come back from the males i have loaned out so i should have around 400 lowland slings this year if not more and i doubt any will look like highland but we will soon see , i have seen a good number of the slings that paul towler has produced and none have looked differant they all look the same

Ok so this means that by mating two the same "colour form" P.subfusca go on to produce all the same "colour form" spiderlings. Easy to understand had the same with S.peerboomi.
So by mating two different "Colour forms" you would get a mix? (Do genes work this way?)

i would like to see the moults and pictures of these so called lowland form from a wc highland female ?

I think after this thread we all would but I for one will live if we don't.

i have seen a variaty in colour in the highland but not in the lowland form

Can you post any pics of the variaty to be found or link to some pics?

groth rate dont always go on food and heat since i have had a p metallica male mature 23 months from sling he was fed the same as his brothers and the same temps they all matured around 14-16 months

Never said it did but it can I think play a part. See article above.

my lowland subfusca males all kept the same fed&temps the same all matured at differant times 11 to 16 months all big male my singa blues have also took around 16-18 months to mature temps high and lots of food ?? i have only had 1 male highland subfusca and he was kept the same as the lowland he matured at 11 months old and only small 5inch where my lowlands have all been big only 1 lowland male matured at 6.5 inch mybe bigger the others have been 7-7.5inch

Your compareing a range of "lowland" to just 1 "highland". How are you to know at this point that "highland forms" do not also grow so large and often? Maybe later on when more have matured you can or not say more definet?

spiders will huddle together to prevent the loss of body heat since they are cold blooded

Ok I can get this. but:-

this just tells us the lowland form likes warm conditions

For reasons stated by Mr Gabriel and I suspect other reasons it doesn't tell us this to any great certainty.

also from what i have been told the lowland form was collected around the knuckels range so its not un-known where they came from just needs some one to have a look around ,

Can't comment as I know not the area, but after reading a previous post it is a little strange for obvious reasons???

Hi Alex

@ Chris :
With all respect due to Thomas, I asked him for some photos of his 4 sister females. He accepted very kindly to send some when he can.

Thats good news. I hope it can clear some of this up.
That was interesting about the mating attempt, but I can't help feeling that the same kind of thing happens across the board where spiders are concerned. It is after all not all that uncommon for a female to refuse one male and mate with another different one a day or so later, even when it is 100% sure of all the same species are involved. Also with these being so closely related in the Poecilotheria sence of view (I just persume this btw) I can't see them being a different species as a reason for them not mating, after all isn't there a good number of Poecilotheria crosses knocking about in the hobby all ready? I have even heard of a subfusca x rufilata cross, so I find it hard to buy into that reason.

What would lead me to think both "forms" would not cross is the following thing

According to Simon they have been crossed though?:-

maybe he has mixed bloodline male lowland x highland since there is a couple of people who have crossed the 2 forms so there is not going to be 2 forms for long

I will leave it for him to say more though as I do not know anything about this lol.

All the best
Chris

[wesley flower]

thanks ray

[Ray Gabriel]

can i please have more info regarding this statment please?

Previous BTS Journal article

age?

couple of months

gender of individuals? ratio of m/f?

unknown

size of community? number of specimens cohabiting?

80?90?+ though only a few were in the attack and communual feed

are they related?

yes

how many bloodlines in the comunity?

1

Ray

[wesley flower]

I have seen group attack and feeding only once in a group of P. regalis....................are these a different form as ther are acting differently from the others?

can i please have more info regarding this statment please?
age?
gender of individuals? ratio of m/f?
size of community? number of specimens cohabiting?
are they related? how many bloodlines in the comunity?
thank you for your co-operation
wes

[wesley flower]

in my experience in araneomorphs varients will breed but it is rare in the wild to come accross a hybrid spider. i have seen Amaurobius ferox female with a Amaurobius ferox var albidus male, these mated and had several sacs the off spring were mainly A. ferox with about 5% var albidus. this was in the wild natural habitat. under controled conditions i experimented with a female A. ferox and a male A. fenestrailis, all i can say is the male is no more, he did not even try courtship but entered her web at his own accord.
i have had about 12 yrs experience in observing the native spiders and only once in that time i have seen one possible hybrid the specimen was a Drassodes sp, thought to be a cupreus X lapidosus this specimen was a male, i under controlled conditions as he was a large male tried mating him with a female D. lapidosus, the mating went well but no sacs were produced. my theory was that the male was a hybrid mule thus not fertile.

from what i can see from the photos of the two P. subfusca in question. the 'high land' form looks to be a subadult male??????? and the 'lowland' a female either sub/adult???????
so how can you compare these two specimens. it is more than obvious that they are either of different gemder, or one being a sub species or possible th highland being either P. bara or P. uniformis as previousily quoted

[Ray Gabriel]

spiders will huddle together to prevent the loss of body heat since they are cold blooded this just tells us the lowland form likes warm conditions also from what i have been told the lowland form was collected around the knuckels range so its not un-known where they came from just needs some one to have a look around ,

hi Simon i have seen most Pokes huddle together even in heated cabinets,

I have seen group attack and feeding only once in a group of P. regalis....................are these a different form as ther are acting differently from the others?

Knuclkes = Kandy the capital of the HIghlands of Sri Lanka, the knuckles are no where near Matalae (and a lot higher in altitude) which is where the lowland form is reputed to be found (if there is any forest left).

Ray

[Simon Goldsborough]

Hi

How many sacs?

3 spiders from 3 different sacs?

Did you see all the spiderlings that were produced in these sacs?
If not how are you sure there were no other variants in them?
If the two forms can indeed be found in one sac in the wild, then can the breeding of the two same forms together go to produce all same form spidlings even if there was a mix at the start?

No use to the descussion if you have not seen the results yet. Saying that though, at what stage of development can you see the differences?

Growth depends on heat and food if I remember right. for an example:-
Cyriopagopus sp. "blue" males can be mature within a year yet I still have a juv that is almost 2 years old. Again concerning this species the vast majority of males I have seen have been quite small when compared to an example that I saw in the wild which was immensely larger. Adult male size is in my humble oppinion a bit of a none starter as it is so varieable in the same species let alone different species if they are so closely related to each other.

so what are the differences in conditions that you are keeping them in at the moment? If they do produce fertile sacs the same what can you tell from this? If they don't what can you tell from this?

Sorry have to ask but do spiders huddle to keep warm?

Not too sure what this tells us in regards to the two "forms"

Cheers
Chris

i have had lowland subfusca from 6 differant sacs (differant mothers only 2 had the same farther ) i have a full sac here now at n1's so far i have yet to see any that look differant from the same sac from lowland form this year i will have around 6 lowland female to breed then what ever come back from the males i have loaned out so i should have around 400 lowland slings this year if not more and i doubt any will look like highland but we will soon see , i have seen a good number of the slings that paul towler has produced and none have looked differant they all look the same , i would like to see the moults and pictures of these so called lowland form from a wc highland female ? i have seen a variaty in colour in the highland but not in the lowland form , groth rate dont always go on food and heat since i have had a p metallica male mature 23 months from sling he was fed the same as his brothers and the same temps they all matured around 14-16 months my lowland subfusca males all kept the same fed&temps the same all matured at differant times 11 to 16 months all big male my singa blues have also took around 16-18 months to mature temps high and lots of food ?? i have only had 1 male highland subfusca and he was kept the same as the lowland he matured at 11 months old and only small 5inch where my lowlands have all been big only 1 lowland male matured at 6.5 inch mybe bigger the others have been 7-7.5inch also dont look like the highland male once you have both forms in front of you you can see the differance between the 2 forms i do have both forms of both sexes mature and juvs , spiders will huddle together to prevent the loss of body heat since they are cold blooded this just tells us the lowland form likes warm conditions also from what i have been told the lowland form was collected around the knuckels range so its not un-known where they came from just needs some one to have a look around ,

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

I'd just like to add this :
What would lead me to think both "forms" would not cross is the following thing : although we can see polymorphism within so called highland specimens, so called lowland ones are all identical. And I could never see one specimen that would look like so called highland and lowland at the same time.
But this is perhaps silly thinking, I agree.

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

If it wasn't for Thomas's remarks about finding both forms in a WC eggsac I would too tend to think otherwise.

@ Chris :
With all respect due to Thomas, I asked him for some photos of his 4 sister females. He accepted very kindly to send some when he can.

When you say 'cross', what exactly do you mean? Did the spiders mate or did they refuse to mate or show no interest? Did they produce sacs that were infertile or were no sacs produced from any successful matings?

What exactly happened?

@ Phil :
This is the tricky point.
AFAIK, and as said Steevens, no matings could ever be observed (in one case though, an infertile sac was produced). But I admit we may be wrong, more attempts are needed. And I can read that some breeders tell the opposite. So I cannot say anything for sure.

Here is exactly what I could observe :
When I placed a so called highland male with a so called lowland female, the male started it courtship, then the female went out of her hollow cork, but went back in very quickly. I let them together for 2 weeks. I could never observe any sperm web in the tank. I pulled the male out. Then I got Simon's male that I placed with the same female and let them together. I could never see any courtship, and no sperm web in the tank either. But when I pulled the male out, he made a sperm web. I replaced him with the female for 2 days, then pulled it out. New sperm web the same night.
In case this female would laid a fertile eggsac, I agree it would be difficult to say anything. However, I am leading to think she mated with the so called lowland male only.

The 2 so called forms have no ventral leg markings (entirely black)

Best regards,
Alex

[Steevens DROGUET]

And were they all kept at the same temps??

Oh I didn't know that the temperature change the size that can reached adults tarantulas (both males and females)...

And were they all kept at the same temps?

I didn't know that temperatures change the color of tarantulas too...

How many mating attemps?
How many different males and females were used?
Did the same males and females go on and mate and produce fertile eggsacs with their own 'colour forms'?

I will let Alex answer exactly

[Steevens DROGUET]

I am not so sure if the markings are different though which I am lead to believe is an important thing when looking at identifing a Poecilotheria?

Of course not. The markings are the same.
Markings are actually the way to differenciate the Poecilotheria species. But maybe there is something more ? Where start different between two species ? A big different ? A small differente ?

[Chris Sainsbury]

The problem must not be seeing like this, but like this :
All the males who looks like "lowland form" grown faster and come bigger than the "highland"

And were they all kept at the same temps?

He told that before someone ask him if they are keep in the same condition. And before someone will say that if the look differents, it's because they don't eat the same thing...

And were they all kept at the same temps?

Mating attempts. The spiders refuse to mate

How many mating attemps?
How many different males and females were used?
Did the same males and females go on and mate and produce fertile eggsacs with their own 'colour forms'?