a blue P.subfusca????

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

whats a Poecilotheria bara?

Hello,
You have your answer here (Ray G.) :

the TYPE of P. bara was examined by Peter Kirk (another person who has studied Poecilotheria for years and collected in the field etc) and found to be the SAME and ill say it again again SAME species as P. subfusca so they were synonymised.

[Nicola Dolby]

Thanks for the help Simon. I've got a lowland male available for breeding if anyone is interested! By the way, at the risk of being lynched, whats a Poecilotheria bara?

[Simon Goldsborough]

Hi Alex

Thats good news. I hope it can clear some of this up.
That was interesting about the mating attempt, but I can't help feeling that the same kind of thing happens across the board where spiders are concerned. It is after all not all that uncommon for a female to refuse one male and mate with another different one a day or so later, even when it is 100% sure of all the same species are involved. Also with these being so closely related in the Poecilotheria sence of view (I just persume this btw) I can't see them being a different species as a reason for them not mating, after all isn't there a good number of Poecilotheria crosses knocking about in the hobby all ready? I have even heard of a subfusca x rufilata cross, so I find it hard to buy into that reason.


According to Simon they have been crossed though?:-




All the best
Chris

how did you here about the rufilata x subfusca you make out like i told you about them there was 2 people who fell to this old rufilata male being passed off as a lowlad subfusca i was loaned male that was supossed to be a lowland form subfusca by Martin Dratva i put it in with 1 of my females after removing a old male subfusca that she was not interested in breeding with the day this so called fresh lowland male arrived i removed the old subfusca male and put in the so called fresh lowland male they was togeher for around 4-5 weeks before i removed the male then i noticed it was no subfusca male but a old rufilata male i contacted the martin dratva off the t store who sent me the male and a switch had been made when he loaned it out and he didnt even try to track down his male and find out who swapped the male my thoughts is he sent me the old rufilata by misstake and thought it would be easyier to pass the blame on to who ever loaned the male , a few days went by and i had a 7.5inch fresh male lowland so i thought it wont hurt to see if she will mate i waited for a sperm web then put the my big freshly mature lowland male in with the female he was tapping away for 4 days produced 2 sperm webs in her tank then she tried to kill him on the 5th day so i removed the male the female wouldnt feed for 5-6 weeks from removing my fresh lowland male then she started to eat every thing i gave hershe produced a sac in november removed in december to find it 100% fertile not 1 bad egg they all moulted in to slings a few days ago and look to be subfusca not a cross rufilata x subfusca i have 2 subfusca slings from a sac i removed a few days after the other sac so i have subfusca slings and rufilata slings to compare them too and they are the exact same as the 2 subfusca slings from the bad egg sac thats just a few days older the rufilata slings are a lot bigger in leg span than subfusca slings , so far in the uk there is only regalis x fasciata hybrid pokies i have 2 females in my collection 1 was mated with a fasciata male before i got them so we will see if her sac is fertile in a few weeks , i woudnt expect a hybrid sac to be 100% fertile i do know there was a sac produced by this old rufilata male to a lowland subfusca female only a few eggs where fertile and soon died off as they moulted only 8 made it to spiderlings none of them fed and died a few weeks later none survived , in a month or 2 i will 100% know for certain if mine are subfusca and not hybrids , it would have been interesting if they did survive to see what they look like for future refferance in case any more misstakes are made and go by unnoticed

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

Hello,

just to answer Chris :

That was interesting about the mating attempt, but I can't help feeling that the same kind of thing happens across the board where spiders are concerned. It is after all not all that uncommon for a female to refuse one male and mate with another different one a day or so later, even when it is 100% sure of all the same species are involved. Also with these being so closely related in the Poecilotheria sence of view (I just persume this btw) I can't see them being a different species as a reason for them not mating, after all isn't there a good number of Poecilotheria crosses knocking about in the hobby all ready? I have even heard of a subfusca x rufilata cross, so I find it hard to buy into that reason.

Yes, I must agree with you.

And thanks for other informations here and there.

Best regards,
Alex

[Chris Sainsbury]

Fair enough Ray but the b*****ks must stay, for being a trekie I'm afraid to say lol
Only jokeing, go on enjoy your program just don't talk about it ok lol.
All the best
Chris

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Ray
I hope this is not directed at me for asking this question :-Chris

WOOPS no i dindnt even see you had said that, there are a few "Europeans" saying this though, and like i said was not the first time i have heard this, i actually get emails saying "is this really P. bara"................................

So no its people who are TELLING people they are P. bara i was aiming that at.

Must go DS9 is on

Ray

[Chris Sainsbury]

Now this means that P. bara can NEVER be a species again, so why are some MORONS trying to lead people on by saying it is still valid????? (again not you Wesley)

Hi Ray
I hope this is not directed at me for asking this question :-

Just out of interest. If (and from what I can make out from all this it is a bigish IF) this "low" or "High" version of P. subfusca did turn out to be a new species, would it not be possible that it could infact be what was described as P. bara before it got synominized with P. subfusca? That being the case, wouldn't it have to be reinstated rather than get a new name?

It was after all just an honest to god question and in no way did I try and lead anyone anywhere!

If it was aimed at me then I say b*****ks to you, as I would rather be a MORON than someone who was afraid to ask if they didn't know.

Cheers
Chris

[Ray Gabriel]

Just a thought, which is just as viable as an undecribed species, could these be a stable hybrid?

Why not?

Ray

[Ray Gabriel]

I think this is a good place to split this thread mods

if you are in and line breeding

No one that i know of is "line breeding", we still dont know enough about theraphosids to get them to breed all the time, to even try it, and look at all the work you would have to do. mate 1 pair, rear all the young and then breed the best pair for that particular trait you are working on, lets say size. But as females get bigger with age then how do you know you are chosing what is going to be the biggest female before the males die?

Next point we dont even know if mating a female will stop her growing as all the growth going to produce young is being diverted away from size growth.

OH and at this stage i should point out that older bigger females tend to be male munchers and not reproducers.

and crossing high and lowland subfuscas to gat a variation and selectivly breeding the varient you want, this is termed selective breeding. could this be termed a mutation????

I never said that to cross them to get a variation, So using the definition of high and low land subfuscas we have been given, IE one is light coloured and one is dark, as as Thomas Froik has pointed out you get both colour forms from the same eggsac, where is the selective breeding?

Selective breeding is the same as line brreding = breeding for a specific chosen by man trait

another question. hybridising is no kosher is it?

A Kosh is a simple style of club normally used for mugging people i dont understand what you are saying.

there is speculation

Yes and that is all it is. there is no proof

OK here goes, the people who are saying its different are the ones who spent alot of money on these as they were told they were something different.

The people who are saying they are not different are the people who have had subfusca for years, examined dead specimens, compared specimens against the type, and who have been in the field collecting them.

Who would you believe?

that low and highland subfuscas my not be of the same sp and may be as i have seen quoted P. bara

And who is saying this?

the people who are saying its different are the ones who spent alot of money on these as they were told they were something different.

OR

The people who are saying they are not different are the people who have had subfusca for years, examined dead specimens, compared specimens against the type, and who have been in the field collecting them.

Now then, for those people that (being the instant Poecilotheria experts they are, as this is not the first time i have heard this, and this is not directed at you wesley) should know better, the TYPE of P. bara was examined by Peter Kirk (another person who has studied Poecilotheria for years and collected in the field etc) and found to be the SAME and ill say it again again SAME species as P. subfusca so they were synonymised.

Now this means that P. bara can NEVER be a species again, so why are some MORONS trying to lead people on by saying it is still valid????? (again not you Wesley)

or uniformis or possable an unclassified sp, so until the taxonomists are sure why ae you suggesting keep them in mixed groups?

Well at present the taxonomists ARE SURE as no dead specimens have so far been presented of this "lowland" form YET, there are hopefully specimens of the dark form being packed as i speak, so as they are the SAME SPECIES and we ahve reliable information that both come from the same eggsac....................where is the problem with mixed groups?, they are born that way.

Ill let everyone else work out P. uniformis

i would really love to see the evidance for the Lycosids.

Cannot find/ cant be assed looking more, it was in an article in the New York Times? October 2003 I think, try google ing Lycosa mate preferance



Ray

[Simon Goldsborough]

I don't know if this helps but..........Looking at the abdominal markings on the pictures from Steevens I have an adult female lowland form. She likes temperatures around 23 degrees but also at 27-29 degrees, which is how I keep her. I tried to breed her with a male I got just before Christmas and her response was to blank him. He was so enthusiastic it was like he was on viagra but she ignored him for over a week before finally snapping at him. thats when I got him out. Was he lowland form, highland form, God knows. I put him back in and got the same again so I gave up. Then I put her through a simulated 'dry season' and in the penultimate week she moulted. However during all the time they were together they shared a constructed web/dirt sock she had built - it got so comical at one stage I thought of getting them his and hers door mats! The thing is how do you tell a male lowland/highland form without knowing where their parents come from? How can we be sure that the apparently 'notorious' difficulty in breeding these isn't down to the types they are? As for size, my female has lives at varying temps and she is only 5 inches in legspan. When I tried to breed mine it was at varying temperatures so that cannot be an excuse for lack of success. (23-29 degrees). One other thing. the fangs on my female are different than any other Poecilotheria fangs I have seen. most I've seen are like cat's claws in shape but these are more needle like, thin at the base and the tip. Also they seem a little over large compared to size, looking at the other pokies I've got. If anyone can help me understand any of this I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks

your female wont breed at 5 inch shes not mature enough they need to be around 6-7 inch before they will produce sac as for matings i never saw and response from my females apart from a open furrow now for the males you can tell the 2 forms apart by the colour the lowland there is a thread on the t's store with pictures of my lowlands and someone put pictures of there highland males on to compare them 2 , so you should beable to tell tthe form you have if you look on there , you well might be right with the variaty of males out there could be down to why the highlands are quite hard to breed and produce less young i know there is mixed forms of subfusca out there because people have gone along with the person who started saying there is no differance in the 2 forms its just a subfusca well it might be a subfusca but clearly dont look or act like the highland so there for it should have been kept that way and never been said till more was found out about the 2 forms now it has lead to mixing the 2 forms that very well could be the reason for them being hard to breed where the lowland is proving very easy to get young from probably because there all pure what we have in the uk well all what have come from paul towler are pure lowland he breeds them without fail my females have laid too , i have had highland male in with a lowland female nd she wont mate with him took him out this morning put mal pots male in he starts tapping straight away the only response i saw from the female was her furrow open thats more than i saw with the highland male also i find that pokies will only mate once with a male if he incerts 1 sperm bulb she wont have any more to do with the male i have noticed this in all the pokies i have mated so i dont think they multipull mate with males some may take a few days to mate some do it straight way ,

[wesley flower]

have you got a pic of the ventral chelicerae? if i could see it i may be able to shed some light on it for you

[Nicola Dolby]

I don't know if this helps but..........Looking at the abdominal markings on the pictures from Steevens I have an adult female lowland form. She likes temperatures around 23 degrees but also at 27-29 degrees, which is how I keep her. I tried to breed her with a male I got just before Christmas and her response was to blank him. He was so enthusiastic it was like he was on viagra but she ignored him for over a week before finally snapping at him. thats when I got him out. Was he lowland form, highland form, God knows. I put him back in and got the same again so I gave up. Then I put her through a simulated 'dry season' and in the penultimate week she moulted. However during all the time they were together they shared a constructed web/dirt sock she had built - it got so comical at one stage I thought of getting them his and hers door mats! The thing is how do you tell a male lowland/highland form without knowing where their parents come from? How can we be sure that the apparently 'notorious' difficulty in breeding these isn't down to the types they are? As for size, my female has lives at varying temps and she is only 5 inches in legspan. When I tried to breed mine it was at varying temperatures so that cannot be an excuse for lack of success. (23-29 degrees). One other thing. the fangs on my female are different than any other Poecilotheria fangs I have seen. most I've seen are like cat's claws in shape but these are more needle like, thin at the base and the tip. Also they seem a little over large compared to size, looking at the other pokies I've got. If anyone can help me understand any of this I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks

[wesley flower]

the males and females more than likly could recognize each other but as you say prob out of sinc. sorry i missunderstood what yuou were saying i though you were quoting fact.

you never used the word mutation. i did that. i perhaps should have used the word variation, but who to say that it is not a mute???
if you are in and line breeding and crossing high and lowland subfuscas to gat a variation and selectivly breeding the varient you want, this is termed selective breeding. could this be termed a mutation????

another question. hybridising is no kosher is it? there is speculation that low and highland subfuscas my not be of the same sp and may be as i have seen quoted P. bara or uniformis or possable an unclassified sp, so until the taxonomists are sure why ae you suggesting keep them in mixed groups?

i would really love to see the evidance for the Lycosids.

by the way i would really love to spend time researching in the feild but due to illness i am unable so i am green with envy that you have had the chance to do this.

dont take what i say personally, i am merely fishing for info to further my knoweledge

[Ray Gabriel]

really?????????? how is that then????????

I was making a sugestion not a statement, but maybe as they were out of sinc for breeding they were not giving of the correct pheremone or revieving the correct one, maybe it was in the wrong time of the season for the female to mate

i would love to see this

Will get back on this

breeding mutations???????? what you are doing there is selective breeding is it not? i thought Ray previously stated "i want normal spiders" a mutation is not by any standered normal, is it?

So where did I use the word mutations? dont try to put words into my mouth, where are the mutations comming from and where is your proof?

Selective breeding is using a specific specimen say large size and continuosely breeding only the largest specimens for size (or some other trait, which ever you prefer, colour, docility, fecundity etc)) maybe you should read up on that

mating a son to the mother or a brother sister cross is not "selective breeding" as it is more than likely the first mature male or the first mature pair.

So if you think this causes mutations i think you should go overseas, find a nice tarantuls colony stand in the middle and work out where all the males for breeding come from, (the clue is the distance to the next colony taking into account any geographical barriers like rivers, mountains etc). Please can you quote all your refarnces where it is proven that mother\son, brother/sister crosses cause mutations.

Yep i want normal spiders, and yes you are right a mutation is not normal, so where do the mutations come into it? Please post all your referances to this in theraphosid spiders please.

you werent looking hard enough lol (sorry silly joke)

You should try it

Ray

[wesley flower]

could also be because the males and females did not recognise each other. Ray

really?????????? how is that then????????

There is proof that in Lycosids that females prefer to mate with males they have previously encountered before maturity, so could this be the reason why the dark and light ones are not mating? they are either out of sinc or dont recognise each other. Ray

i would love to see this

All it would really take is a couple of breedings and for people to do brother sister / mother son, matings for all of a sudden one form becomes more abundand and appears easier to breed...........because they are all related. Ray

breeding mutations???????? what you are doing there is selective breeding is it not? i thought Ray previously stated "i want normal spiders" a mutation is not by any standered normal, is it?

I have been to Sri Lanka twice looking for Poecilotheria smithi, finding holes in trees is hard enough, but finding holes in trees which contains a Poke is even harder, in one night we walked for around 7 hours in the jungle and found 1 specimen............if habitat is that hard to find communual living might be the way around this. Ray

you werent looking hard enough lol (sorry silly joke)