a blue P.subfusca????

[Ray Gabriel]

to DNA testing, then we will be none the wiser.

I know a man who can,

Ill have a word with him

Ray

[Malcolm Potts]

not exactly slings were they Mal? as they sat in Denmark for a couple of months till the weather got warmer before they could come across.............. and didnt you want the smallest one as a better chance of being female?

They looked like slings to me - hardly juveniles Ray? Anyway - both were immediately identified as males.



Are they mature when you say adult? if they are going i will pass them onto Andy you do realise they will be pickled? cheers

Ray

They are all mature adult males in this group - and as there only seems to be their sisters to mate with - I will let you have a couple for the pickle jar, But even the prospect of calling my favourite spider Poec.pottsi will not make me pickle any of my ladies.

You will need to forward me an address.

Mal.

[wesley flower]

dont try to mix up colour and pattern you will only confuse yourself.

easily done my friend lol

[wesley flower]

Ray and all
what are the taxonomical differences in the genus Poecilotheria? what is different in each individual ie to tell apart P. smithi and P. pederseni and all other species in the genus.

are there any web sites or books around that are basically and identification guide for all/any Theraphisids like the colins feild guide for spiders based on the native spiders of the uk and europe (dont quote me it been years since i read this book)

i know in araneomorphs some are so identical you need to id them on epigyne structure, palp structure (males) and in some sp ie Dysdera to differentiate D. erythina and D. crocata you use the spines on femur iv.

i would love to know the info requsted above
many thanks wes

[Phil Rea]

They are all mature adult males in this group - and as there only seems to be their sisters to mate with - I will let you have a couple for the pickle jar, But even the prospect of calling my favourite spider Poec.pottsi will not make me pickle any of my ladies.

You will need to forward me an address.

Mal.

Mal, if I had an adult female, I would forward her to Andy Smith immediately, just to have a poke named P. pottsi

I know a man who can,

Ill have a word with him

Ray

Excellent. That would solve the mystery once and for all

Wouldn't have to pickle them either

Ray and all
what are the taxonomical differences in the genus Poecilotheria? what is different in each individual ie to tell apart P. smithi and P. pederseni and all other species in the genus.

are there any web sites or books around that are basically and identification guide for all/any Theraphisids like the colins feild guide for spiders based on the native spiders of the uk and europe (dont quote me it been years since i read this book)

i know in araneomorphs some are so identical you need to id them on epigyne structure, palp structure (males) and in some sp ie Dysdera to differentiate D. erythina and D. crocata you use the spines on femur iv.

i would love to know the info requsted above
many thanks wes

Nope. Closest are Andy Smith's 3 books. When his fabled Pokie Book comes out, then that will be the pokie bible, and the new Baboon Spiders book will be the same for the African theraphosids.

[wesley flower]

so basically at the moment there are 15 species of Poecilotheria recognised by taxonomists.
these being
fasciata, formosa, striata, miranda, metallica, regails, smithi, hanumavilasunica, ornata, pederseni, pococki, rufilata, tigrinawesseli, uniformis, subfusca.
all originating from india and sri lanka, is it possible that if this genus was revised that some of these species be synominised or diagnosed as sub species or varients ie for arguments sake Poecilotheria pederseni and Poecilotheria pederseni var. smithi.??????

i would be more than will to look over this genus and give a comparision to Andys diagnosis. it would be fun if nothing else.

[Phil Rea]

..and apparently this one

[Ray Gabriel]

so basically at the moment there are 15 species of Poecilotheria recognised by taxonomists.
these being
fasciata, formosa, striata, miranda, metallica, regails, smithi, hanumavilasunica, ornata, pederseni, pococki, rufilata, tigrinawesseli, uniformis, subfusca.
all originating from india and sri lanka, is it possible that if this genus was revised that some of these species be synominised or diagnosed as sub species or varients ie for arguments sake Poecilotheria pederseni and Poecilotheria pederseni var. smithi.??????

No pococki was synonymised with smithi ages ago, Kirk described smithi, Charpentier described pockocki Kirk was published first, so smithi is the valid name ICZN rules, amazingly in a book published in 2006 years after the synonymy P. pococki was still called a valid species, it is amazing how long something can sink in even when it is published elsewhere and the information is avaliable on the net = World Spider Catalogue,

uniformis is currently unknown, so only 13 sp, none of which will be synonymised (AFAIK) and for some stupid reason the powers that be are saying there will be NO subspecies in Theraphosid spiders.................ok for the rest of the natural world but not theraphosids

i would be more than will to look over this genus and give a comparision to Andys diagnosis. it would be fun if nothing else.

Wouldnt you need to get 20+ years of theraphosid taxonomy under your belt and examine all the Poecilotheria specimens that Andy has done (and is still doing, and get all the input from the breeders/collectors etc first) before you could give a waranted comparison?

[Malcolm Potts]

Quick question for Ray

You have made it clear in this thread that Pococki=smithi and bara=subfusca, but in all of my older books with pictures of P.bara - they in no way resemble subfusca? and would appear to be more like smithi? I know you are correct - I just wonder how these books are so consistantly wrong.

The best example I can think of this off the top my head is Ron Baxter's book.

Mal.

[wesley flower]

when it is published elsewhere and the information is avaliable on the net = World Spider Catalogue,

can i please have the link to this site

the powers that be are saying there will be NO subspecies in Theraphosid spiders.................ok for the rest of the natural world but not theraphosids

that is stupid

Wouldnt you need to get 20+ years of theraphosid taxonomy under your belt and examine all the Poecilotheria specimens that Andy has done (and is still doing, and get all the input from the breeders/collectors etc first) before you could give a waranted comparison?

i have 11yrs experience in looking at and keeping and observing Theraphosid and 12+yrs experience in native araneomorphs. i would say i have a good enough understanding of spider anatomy to do this. who said you need 20 yrs experiance????
i would really love to look over the genus, as there is really nothing stopping me having a go.
would this be possible?????????how would i contact Andy to ask promission to loan his deads?????

[wesley flower]

..and apparently this one

thanks Phil i bloody love this site lol

[Nick L]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Gabriel
the powers that be are saying there will be NO subspecies in Theraphosid spiders.................ok for the rest of the natural world but not theraphosids

that is stupid

The definition of a 'species' is difficult enough -- look up 'ring species' as a classic example of how complex it can be. Subspecies are a nice idea and DO work in some instance but overall they just add 'clutter' and there is a tendancy to move away from using them these days in most branches of zoology. Botanical classification is a complete nightmare with sub-species, micro-species, species-complexes, not to mention varieties, forms and cultivars, etc. ... You have to draw the line somewhere with your 'base classification' -- for me that's the 'species'.

Nick

[Mark Pennell]

can i please have the link to this site

http://research.amnh.org/entomology/spiders/catalog/index.html

i would really love to look over the genus, as there is really nothing stopping me having a go.
would this be possible?????????how would i contact Andy to ask promission to loan his deads?????

NO absolutely nothing! go for it!

Please bare in mind Andrew has been working on project for over 6 years and has few dozen field trips under his belt as well. Not to mention a fair bit odd world hopping to visit various museums and collections.

This has, and is a still mammoth undertaking and the reason the book is not yet out, and that more information and updates are still being gathered....

So even with the contacts that Andrew has managed to acquire in his 20 years plus experience in theraphosidae taxonomy (note: This is what I think Ray was referencing too!)

This has still been one of the most challenging and extensive projects he or anyone has yet undertaken, and of course it does not help that this is one of the more difficult genus to work on.

Will it be a ultimate or definitive guide - well no, there can never be such a thing. However it will be many years down the road until someone can come up with anything better.


Regards
Mark

P.S It more than just a taxo book!

[wesley flower]

i was not at all getting at that i would challenge Andys findings, but i would like to study and further my knoweledge of this great genus, and i love finding things out for myself and working for what i know, instead of letting smeone else do the work and read it in a book i have always dreamt of studying spiders on a high level, and due to illness i was unable to go to uni etc so i am stuck at home still wanting to do this with great enthusiasm.

[Ray Gabriel]

..and apparently this one

Remind me Phil and ill email you the paper, its P. formosa, worst thing is the type is in a "private colelction" and so is not accessable to the Western World, 1 Mygalomorph researcher in India i am in communication with cannot get access to it neither, and thats a Dr, its all down to some hierachy and class thing.

So unless you go by the paper (which BTW regards the abdomen as a taxonomical feature) and use the illustrations to synonymise it with P. formosa this sp will have to stay untill someone can examine the type................. OH and no types were examined and one of the features they use is a variable and the dont count the variation..........it was not peer reviewed (another group who dont think there is anyone else above them...........REALLY the dont..)

Ray