mistake I will never make again

[Toran Tanner]

Aphonopelma sp. (new river) a beautiful spider indeed. I am very honoured, proud and thankful to the BTS for seeing her beauty. But I am sad to say that I regret ever entering her into the BTS comp as now because you all found her beautiful, a certain someone has decided to exploit the species to line their pockets. Ordering 60 wild caught adult (new rivers) plus a few hundred other Aphonopelma specie's.

Fun fact for all you who choose to buy one when he makes them avaliable. In 12 months time, maybe less, they will no longer be alive in the wild. There is only one place to find them and it will be developed in 12 months time. So this species will be exploited to extinction if we allow this and buy into these wild caught animals.

I hear all you saying "Well then, if they are being wiped out then we need to catch as many as we can and start breeding them to keep them in the hobby". I don't think that is the right answer...

We need to remember that most people who buy these won't breed them, but just house them.
We need to write letters in the hundreds to the Arizona goverment and anyone you can think of to stop the land from being wiped out. Wiping out a new species with it.

I got into this hobby with a love for the animals, not a love for keeping them or making money off them by exploiting them. I made the mistake of showing people who I thought shared the same love for these awe inspiring creatures and now they are about to be exploited, for nothing more than money.

I am ashamed of myself for allowing this to happen and I will never make this same mistake again.

We have to remember that these animals, like all animals, were not put here for our entertainment nor to be our captive's as they have come to be. I know they fascinate
us, I have an undying love for them. But I would never exploit wild caught populations as I have shown with my A. iodius. Captive bred populations can be made with just 2 adult females and one male, yes it takes longer than going out and raping a wild population. But you can sleep knowing you have not possibly caused the demise of a species.

Maybe this post and my point will fall on deaf ears and only one maybe two will get it, but if we are to protect this as yet undescribed species, we need to take action- which does not include buying and keeping them as wild caughts. We need to pull together and get this species recognised, so as we can work towards protecting their natural habitat. It is not impossible, and with the BTS behind us (which I know that they are) we can make a real difference.

Thoughts?

[Naython J]

i agree with that completely toran people who go out and take more than they could possibly need should be dishonoured and shamed i can accept people 1 or 2 but when your taking more you cannot help to see the devastation caused to the species,

toran anything i can do let me know ill help

[Colin D Wilson]

Constructive points Toran, and i agree with you about being compasionate about the spiders natural habitat.
I know Andrew Smith was very excited and keen to get an action plan instigated to describing this new species and had offered you the chance to participate when you and he were in deep conversation at the BTS expo.
Something creative needs to be accomplished here and fairly quickly.

[Michael smith]

ill back this up 100%!!......my god its people like this that drive me crazy, i still cant understand how someone thinks they can take this amount of tarantulas from the wild and get away with it, this person is playing the same role as the brazilian governor with the rainforest...destroying something amazing for there own greed and self-gain. if you dont mind me asking by the way how did you come by this info?

[Layla McInnes]

Toran was your spider you showed at the BTS show originally wild caught?

[Toran Tanner]

ill back this up 100%!!......my god its people like this that drive me crazy, i still cant understand how someone thinks they can take this amount of tarantulas from the wild and get away with it, this person is playing the same role as the brazilian governor with the rainforest...destroying something amazing for there own greed and self-gain. if you dont mind me asking by the way how did you come by this info?

Without naming any names, lets just say that I have been in the hobby for some time now and have made friends and contacts on both side's of the Atlantic.

Thanks for the support guys.

[Colin D Wilson]

Can we keep this thread for opinions and conservation debate.

Information can be passed on through Private messaging following the BTS regulations
(4) Please do not post any profanity or slanderous remarks. Naming shaming and personal attacks will not be allowed. If you have a grievance with someone or a company, dealer etc. contact the BTS directly. Such postings will be edited or deleted. The Admin and Moderators are here for this purpose

Thank you kindly

Colin

[Toran Tanner]

Toran was your spider you showed at the BTS show originally wild caught?

Yes Layla my female and male pair are wild caught. My intention was to produce a captive population, as I have done with the iodius - thus aiming to reduce the raping of the species in the wild. Unfortunately the pair have yet to successfully mate, and he is now an old male.

See my original post, we are not talking about 1-2 breeding pairs here, we are talking about vast numbers of a single, and threatened species being expolited for nothing more than monetary gain.

[Layla McInnes]

I still dont think you can preach about not buying WC when most? of your Aphonopelma are probably WC. If I got a new river pair Id endeavour to get a captive breeding of them, quite a few people would. Would that make me bad due to buying one of the 60 WC ones...I dont think so.
Yamia sp. Koh Samui habitat is being built upon at a crazy rate according to our friend who has spent a lot of time there so we have bred and sold cheaply as many as we can so we can secure the spiders future. I think Id rather see them as a pet in breeding programmes than extinct through habitat destruction. I dont think some species like G. rosea need to be WC by the thousands (and more) every year or Avicularia but Aphonpelma and Grammostola etc arent the easiest spider to breed so they will keep WC'ing them.

[matthew spooner]

i agree with you 110% toran, something needs to be done, it would be a shame to see a species die before even being classified. i think we should maybe perhaps get on board with the american tarantula society and maybe devise somesort of petition against there plans to wipe out this land, if not moving their project somewhere else, then perhaps accomodating the fact that these tarantulas, along with other wild life live there. i dont know if other people are in agreeance with this or i am maybe being a bit over the top

[Toran Tanner]

I still dont think you can preach about not buying WC when most? of your Aphonopelma are probably WC. If I got a new river pair Id endeavour to get a captive breeding of them, quite a few people would. Would that make me bad due to buying one of the 60 WC ones...I dont think so.
Yamia sp. Koh Samui habitat is being built upon at a crazy rate according to our friend who has spent a lot of time there so we have bred and sold cheaply as many as we can so we can secure the spiders future. I think Id rather see them as a pet in breeding programmes than extinct through habitat destruction. I dont think some species like G. rosea need to be WC by the thousands (and more) every year or Avicularia but Aphonpelma and Grammostola etc arent the easiest spider to breed so they will keep WC'ing them.

I see your point, But let's examine one part of your argument

most? of your Aphonopelma are probably WC.

I have 6 WC Aphonoplema's all breeding pairs, Then I have 400+ Aphonopelma slings that I have produced. So no, most of my Aphonopelmas are not WC.
I am sure it is easy for someone who has never even seen a wild spider or the damage that people who go out and collect them in the 100's can do. (If my assumption that you have never seen tarantuas in the wild is wrong I apologise.) But if you had you may feel abit different on the subject. If you want to go to vegas with me I will show you.

So if you just want to argue about the six wild caught that I have, instead of trying to solve a problem that everyone just keeps putting on the back burner and pretending it does'nt exist then please go ahead. But not on my post.
I know and understand how people may percieve the fact that I collected 6 WC 2 years ago but guess what people's idea's and morals can change.

I thank you for your feed back

cheers

[matthew spooner]

at the end of the day, if it wasnt for people like toran having thos wild caught Ts and breeding them, they wouldnt be in circulation and that would be a bloody shame for collectors. i seriously doubt that 6 wc Ts is going to cause a major problem for wild populations and i welcome people taking 1 pair from the wild in order to breed and introduce a population into the hobby.

[Nicola Dolby]

Hi Toran,
First can I say I support you totally. So how can we help?? Well if you want us to write letters of protest then please give us an address, either in Arizona or to a co-ordinator in the UK. Alternatively how about a petition on this site which can be presented by the BTS. What are the chances, if the species is so rare, to lobby our MP's and see if they can't get DEFRA to push for the species being added to CITES. I know some of these ideas may seem daft but unless we try, and not just one or two of us, then nothing will get done.
Also Layla, the only way sadly to set up a captive bred community of a species is to take some from the wild and produce egg sacs. This way if things turn out for the worst there is still the possibility for an attempted re-introduction to the wild at a later date. Doing nothing can lead to extinction.

[Tom Forman]

well believe it or not, on average we are losing about 100 species of animals per day around the world.

I was shocked when I found out about this but what can we do.

Guess this Tarantula is going to be on the list next.

It is going to happen by what you have said Toran if they get caught or not.

Personally in light of them getting wiped out very soon, I'd rather they get "rescued" than completely wiped out with you standing in the background going catching them is bad, killing them is bad so lets start a petition...

No offence meant as you have already taken some offence to comments made and I'm sure you will not approve of what I have just said.
Neither do I tbh but we have got to see facts for what they are, lots more people are opposed to deforestation in general, doesn't stop it in any way.
Our small Tarantula society is going to have no effect in complaining so we might as well look at alternative ways of saving this species and captive breeding is a solution at least even if not the best.

[mary walters]

Toran, I saw your girl on Sunday, stunning she is.

I read this thread at around 5.30am, took on board all repiles so far, went away to do a bit of bathroom painting and have come back after thinking about it. You HAVE done the right thing Toran, without you how would we have all known the plight that this sp faces???? You are to be applauded for that action love, do NOT berate yourself. Mary xxxxxx