mistake I will never make again

[James Box]

good post Mary.
Toran, that's a beautiful spider, and i agree with you...take only what is needed for breeding, and try to save the habitat, if possible.
unfortunately Tom is right about the fact that alot of what we can try to do is useless, as so many species are being wiped out.
Layla, i think you're missing what Toran said...there is no problem taking a few pairs to breed in captivity, it's when a species is threatened and someone goes to collect as many as possible that a problem is raised.

Toran, i think entering the spider had some positive and negative effects...the negative ones are just typical human nature, unfortunately, and to be reviled...the positive ones can echo far more loudly, though, if we handle this right.
for one thing, perhaps announcements warning people about what is actually happening in the wild to these spiders could be made during the awards at the BTS.
a mention that someone has entered a new species, which is in danger of being wiped out, could motivate the attendees to sign a petition to send to the governments of whatever area is under threat...a few petitions for endangered species/habitats could be there.
maybe that's a bad idea, but maybe it'd help.
the fact is, we all know of the spider's plight now, and we didn't before...
now hopefully something can be done.
as for the wild caught specimens that will arrive soon...i'm in two minds.
one thought says i should try to support whatever breeding can be done with the new specimens, the other thought says i should not support the dealer and complain and tell him/her off if possible, and warn others as well.
what to do??? we obviously need to breed them...
i just hope this ...so-and-so... isn't good at sexing and gets a proportionate number of males!
addresses for letters etc would be good, if that can be co-ordinated.
anyone have good contacts with the ATS so we can get them on board or support their existing efforts?

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi Toran

Couple of small questions in regards to this:-

Are you sure this is the ONLY place you can find this species?
If yes then how do you know this?
What is the size of this tarantula colony (How many burrows to a square meter and over what kind of area? (average off course))
What is the land being developed into/for?
Why has this piece of land been picked?
How big is this species? (can't say I have seen it soz)


Cheers
Chris

[Kate Arbon]

I have mixed feelings on this subject. Generally speaking I, as with most T-lovers I would assume, am in preference of buying and trading CB spiders and leaving the wild populations to it. In an ideal world that would be the best way.

But on the other hand, as you have pointed out in your original post Toran, wild populations are not protected if we simply stop catching specimens. T dealers such as the one you mention taking lots of spiders from the wild are not their only threat, habitat destruction is a much greater danger. If you deny the ability to remove spiders from an endangered habitat than surely you prolong the population's survival for a while, but ultimately you doom it to extinction.

With species that are easier to breed, fewer captive specimens may be okay for producing CB populations. But as you say, you have not been successfull with breeding this species yet. If a species is difficult to breed and the wild population is going to get wiped out, surely it is of benefit to get as many of the individuals into captive breeding programs as soon as possible.

I understand it's a difficult subject and I sympathise. Ideally these threatened animals would be left in peace but unfortunately few people make money that way, and as we know money makes the world go round. There are endangered animals all over the world whose existence is being threatened and ultimately wiped out because they live somewhere that somebody wants to build houses, or a road, or a holiday resort. Unless those animals can somehow come up with the billions of pounds that those developments would produce for someone, they are not going to be given priority. It's incredibly sad and it makes me angry but that's how our world works. In that light, for a lot of animals, taking them into captivity will be the only way to ensure that twenty years down the line we still have them on this planet


EDIT: just wanted to add that I don't think you should blame yourself for what has happened here either. Maybe your spider did provoke this person to order those wild individuals, but as has been said you have also done some work to raise awareness about this situation. And in the end, if the worst happens and the wild population is destroyed through development, maybe those 60 caught spiders will be the key to keeping this species alive, and then you really will have done a good thing!!

[Taki Tsonis]

I'm just confused about one thing here though. Are they going to be extinct from that area because of the development or because of the 60 WC ones? If it is the former, what is the point of leaving them 'in the wild'? Wouldn't wild catching them actually be saving them then?

I think Chris has made a very good point. How many are there over what size area? If there's 6000 of them left, then 60 coming into the hobby surely can't be much worse than your 6 Toran. If there's only a couple of hundred left it changes everything.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you in principle but a few more facts need to be known IMO.
Either way it shouldn't be left to fate.
Where can I see pics of your T btw?
Cheers

[Leon Lane]

Thoughts?

Hmmmm!

Just to make sure I am following this correctly, you have some WC of this species?
And the area they are found is going to be destroyed?

You have brought the species to the attention of traders who are now going to harvest some before the habitat is destroyed - no more spider.

If you had not brought the species then none would have been harvested and the habitat would still be destroyed - no more spider

Firstly, of course there is a difference between mass harvest and measured collection - I think we all know the difference as tarantula enthusiasts.

Secondly, I can understand that you are disappointed that people are going to "profit" from your information/discovery (sorry, I have little background knowledge on this species) but you do have WC examples of these yourself - so why is it okay for you to take them but not someone else?

Thirdly, I would rather see some collected and potentially bred than see them lost anyway after a series of fruitless protests. If you began your protest and it failed, what would you do then?
Change your tactic and begin to harvest as many as possible to prevent extinction, or just wait for them to be wiped out by development?

I'm not trying to incite an angry response, far from it - I'm just interested in your feelings on this.

[Ray Hale]

I am following this thread with great interest. My own feelings on the WC / CB arguement are best kept for another thread on another day. However I would like to address parts of your original post Toran.

You say that you made a mistake by exhibiting the spider at the BTS Exhibition becuase a trader (unnamed) now wishes to take 60 WC. I can understand your concern on this and it would be great pity if this spider disappeared from the wild but why do you feel the need to connect the two as if this was the first time this spider has ever appeared in public. Having done some checking I find that you yourself posted excellent pictures on the ATS site in January whetting the adoring publics appetite. Further am I correct in saying that this spider is already quite commonly kept in the hobby in the states in the main due to the posting of others photographs on a number of forums. Whilst I am not suggesting that you are in anyway reponsible for its popularity I am sure you are aware that any photograph of a new species posted immedaittly attaracts the "ooohs and aahhs " from the masses

The BTS will support you and your cause but please do not suggest that the showing of your spider has sparked of a mass wild collection as my research tells me that it is already being collected in some numbers. This species is as yet undescribed and I look forward to seeing any work that is done. Being one of the people who has seen habitat destruction first hand I can understand your concern and both the BTS and the ATS should confer on the possible paths. I have contacted a number of my American contacts to discuss the problem

I would add that your post has not fallen on deaf ears but to progress further I need names. Please PM me if you do not wish to make public your information.

Best wishes
Ray HAle
BTS Committee

[Layla McInnes]

I see your point, But let's examine one part of your argument I have 6 WC Aphonoplema's all breeding pairs, Then I have 400+ Aphonopelma slings that I have produced. So no, most of my Aphonopelmas are not WC.
I am sure it is easy for someone who has never even seen a wild spider or the damage that people who go out and collect them in the 100's can do. (If my assumption that you have never seen tarantuas in the wild is wrong I apologise.) But if you had you may feel abit different on the subject. If you want to go to vegas with me I will show you.

So if you just want to argue about the six wild caught that I have, instead of trying to solve a problem that everyone just keeps putting on the back burner and pretending it does'nt exist then please go ahead. But not on my post.
I know and understand how people may percieve the fact that I collected 6 WC 2 years ago but guess what people's idea's and morals can change.

I thank you for your feed back

cheers

I did mean your adults but alas I didnt type everything I was thinking
Dont presume to know what I have or havent seen,Vegas.....hmm nope, Mexico will be my first port of call on T spotting adventures...one day....
Im of the opinion that habitat destruction is a massive problem with Ts and I do think these should be collected and yes bred not sold for profitable gain but humans being humans will nearly always see pound signs first.

Im not arguing about anything but you cant say its ok for you to have them and no one else, if I had a pair Id try and breed them, as would many others, maybe instead of worrying about where the animals will end up try and steer the dealer onto selling them to responsible hobbyists who will try and continue this spiders survival? Small chance it will happen maybe but you can always try and educate
I am saddened by their habitat destruction but I agree with Kate. A multi million pound dollar development wont go on hold for spiders.

[Nick L]

It’s difficult to see this thread as anything other than a poorly argued “don’t buy WC” post. While in essence I agree with you, you paint a rather simplistic picture – it’s not black and white as you suggest but the full spectrum of grey. Don’t take this personally but I will now play the Devil’s Advocate and deal with your post (and by inference some others too) piecemeal to provide you with food for thought…

Aphonopelma sp. (new river) a beautiful spider indeed. I am very honoured, proud and thankful to the BTS for seeing her beauty. But I am sad to say that I regret ever entering her into the BTS comp as now because you all found her beautiful, a certain someone has decided to exploit the species to line their pockets. Ordering 60 wild caught adult (new rivers) plus a few hundred other Aphonopelma specie's.

Fun fact for all you who choose to buy one when he makes them avaliable. In 12 months time, maybe less, they will no longer be alive in the wild. There is only one place to find them and it will be developed in 12 months time. So this species will be exploited to extinction if we allow this and buy into these wild caught animals.

I hear all you saying "Well then, if they are being wiped out then we need to catch as many as we can and start breeding them to keep them in the hobby". I don't think that is the right answer...


Is this really the only locality for the species? If it IS then that would indicate to me that it is a highly evolved and specialised species – it is not found elsewhere because the particular ecological niche that it occupies is not found elsewhere. It would probably take many years of fieldwork to be able to come even close to identifying what the characteristics of it’s ecology were, which is too long/to late. A translocation of the species is therefore likely to fail as you wont be able to assess suitable sites for ecological compatability. The locality is to be developed therefore there is NO hope for it – it’s ONLY future lies in captivity for the time-being. You could try and persuade a ‘zoo’ to collect and maintain a the captive population but I doubt they would show much interest in a species that there is little is known about; their limited resources for such work will be better spent, in their eyes, elsewhere. So, it’s future lies in ‘the hobby’. ‘New River’ IS a nice looking species and will appeal to many but it will never eclipse the popular and more colourful species that are the ‘staple’ of the hobby and will it’s purchase price be popular? – I’d suspect that it wont be cheap. Isn’t it good therefore that a dealer is prepared to take so many? The dealer could be even more responsible by offering for sale only pairs or trios for sale; therefore only really affordable by those who are intending upon breeding them. So, where’s the “exploitation”??? This ‘dealer’ in the above instance is potentially the ‘Guardian Angel’ to this species.

What I really think… What’s the taxonomy like? Is it really a distinct and new species? I’d question whether this is the only locality and would not be surprised if other populations were found elsewhere. Assuming that it is a distinct species then the fact that it ONLY occurs in one locality makes me think that a translocation WOULD be futile. I’d doubt you’d get a ‘zoo’ to be interested in taking in a captive population, maybe you could muster some local hobbyists to take them in? Is the building/commertcial development beyond reproach??? I appreciate that the “dealer” may well not have known that this species would become extinct in the wild at the time of making his order [= you’ve rather shot yourself in foot by throwing this into the equation!] but he is ordering a ‘decent’ number of specimens of a species that is commercially ‘untested’ [= it’s not blue!] and as I said if he only offers them for sale in ‘breeding groups’ (as I’ve seen Lee of The Spider Shop do) then that is quite a ‘responsible’ thing to do for a business that is only ‘out to make money’. I’d guess that the ‘profit margin’ on an unknown species such as this is far less than that on the ‘popular’ species.

We need to remember that most people who buy these won't breed them, but just house them.


Will they?! On what basis do you assume this. I wouldn’t even like to hazard a guess as to whether the potential owners of this sp. would be ‘keepers’ or ‘breeders’ – personally I guess the later as I reckon they’ll be quite expensive and from what you’ve said very limited in supply.

We need to write letters in the hundreds to the Arizona goverment and anyone you can think of to stop the land from being wiped out. Wiping out a new species with it.

So I address a letter to “Arizona government, Arizona, USA” and say what??? “There’s this spider Aponopelma sp. ‘new river’ somewhere in Arizona that in 12 months time, maybe less, will no longer be alive in the wild. There is only one place to find them and it will be developed in 12 months time. Please stop the land from being wiped out. Yours sincerely…” And, I write the same to as many ‘powerful’ Americans that I can think of – George W Bush, Dick Cheney, Arnold Schwartzeneger, etc.! Do you really think that’s going to get anywhere?! IF you really want help/action give a name and full address to write to, and, maybe some details of the spider and area! Where does it occur? Who owns the land and who’s developing it for what? Let’s have some stats. about the species too – over what area does it occur, how many are there, give us some published references to quote! NO ONE will take any notice unless you give detail. If this is a SERIOUS “call to arms” why can’t I see any posts by you ,or anyone else, on the ATS board about it? – surely the ‘home grown’ society will have more ‘weight’ than the society from across the pond? C’mon…Have you really researched this? Or, are you getting all steamed up from a few conversations?

I got into this hobby with a love for the animals, not a love for keeping them or making money off them by exploiting them. I made the mistake of showing people who I thought shared the same love for these awe inspiring creatures and now they are about to be exploited, for nothing more than money.

I am ashamed of myself for allowing this to happen and I will never make this same mistake again.

Hey, I love animals too! I’ve been interested in ALL animals since as long as I can remember and my life, education and and work have been soley centred around them! I consider it a ‘conquest’ if I can get anyone even remotely interested in ‘wildlife’. Awareness is THE most important thing, maybe you don’t appreciate it but the VAST majority of humans on this earth couldn’t give a F*CK about wildlife (~animals) – to get anyone to show ANY appreciation IS a MAJOR achievement. Don’t be stupid! – Awareness is the first major step.

[A cut-short-aside, this site is really p****** me off -- nowhere near finishihed commenting on this "thread" but am limited by 'characters' per post! -- Why? 'Tis crap that I'm not allowed to reply properly to a post! -- 'Bye, bye then!' Webmasters comments: see my PM good man!

Nick

[Chris Sainsbury]

Shame Nick as I was really starting to enjoy your post as well. It is always a pleasure to read something that has been well thought out and looks at a disscussion from a different angle.
I would have liked to read more.
Chris

[Nicola Dolby]

First can I say I'm glad that the BTS is willing to help here. The committee have really helped me in the past and I do hope that Toran will accept this offer. One thing though, as pics of this are on US sites, can we have one here please? Then Chris and I and others who weren't at the BTS show can see this beauty!

[Mark Pennell]

Shame Nick as I was really starting to enjoy your post as well. It is always a pleasure to read something that has been well thought out and looks at a disscussion from a different angle.
I would have liked to read more.
Chris

Chris
we do not restrict anyone's comments, Nicks reply is cut off by the software limitations not mine or the BTS's.

Regards
Mark

[Chris Sainsbury]

NP Mark. I never thought you did. I was just saying it was a shame there was not more, nothing else. No need to explain things to me in any rate.

cheers
Chris

[Mark Pennell]

NP Mark. I never thought you did. I was just saying it was a shame there was not more, nothing else. No need to explain things to me in any rate.

cheers
Chris

Chris
I know Chris but the last remark on the post kind makes out we stifled the post, just wanted to point out this was not the case and have Pm'ed Nick to explain this..

I too enjoyed the constructed and well thought reply, but not the last comment.

Best regards
Mark

[Ray Hale]

Nick an excellent post and one that I think you should continue. Im sure Mark will have sorted it out by now so come on lets see the rest.

I think most sites limit character use to stop long and meaningless rants. On the other hand yours was of great interest and well worth reading. Good points i beleive..

Ray

[Toran Tanner]

I have many replies to try and answer and not enough time. last night I spent 2 hours writing a reply and I erased the whole thing on accident by doing a google search. Lost all of it, I will try to make a proper reply later. Mark and Ray maybe we need to get together and talk there is alot that I can not make public so I have to limit my post in ways.

Thanks for the support