anyone seen this?

[Nick L]

The link in the first post is a just a summary of the IUCN Red List data-sheet. These are just ‘attention grabbing summaries’ that are replaced regularly on the web-site to provide fresh content. You should really read the actual data sheet at:- http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/63562 for a more accurate picture, which will also answer some to the questions that people have levied.

The IUCN funds a lot of local studies and surveys that you don’t and wont see published in mainstream journals – they’re produced as private reports that you can only inspect at IUCN libraries (the UK one is in Cambridge somewhere). Pertinent information is summarized in the data-sheets. So, data is not drawn from thin air. Doubting the accuracy of the studies/surveys on which the data-sheets are based is another matter.

While I agree in essence with Richard Gallons’ comments, the categorisation of inverts in particular, is a major headache and more an ‘educated guess’ than a formal application of criteria. Personally the more public awareness/attention that inverts are given in this way the better.

[Nicola Dolby]

I was going to ask a few things but Phil has just answered everything! Well done guys

[Matthew Baines]

I had a further search within the red list website and quite a few poecilotheria are endangered . I never knew this!!! I also learned something new as they are not just ornamental spiders but also known as parachute spiders too.

[Mark Pajak]

I agree that the taxonomy might be less than resolved, but that can be ironed out in scientific papers -

personally the more public awareness/attention that inverts are given in this way the better......

it is a good thing that Theraphosids are gaining 'charismatic megafauna' status and more people are learning about them that wouldnt otherwise.

[Phil Rea]

It may well be taxonomically debateable, but my understanding is that there is a deposited type so the name is fixed, and it is accepted as a separate species until such time as someone publishes differently.

Unfortunately whether it is actually endangered or not, a spider will never generate the public interest of something like a big cat. The sad fact is that most people couldn't care less whether a spider goes extinct or not.

[Mark Pennell]

The sad fact is that most people couldn't care less whether a spider goes extinct or not.

Quite right Phil - but we care though and as long as the society is supported by like minded people we might one day get somewhere.

The even sadder fact is they are happy to blame societies, hobbyists and a like for the demise of certain sp, yet never really want to blame habitat destruction, local prejudices, or use of pesticides.

If they are happy to state 500 adults left this can be double or tripled within one to two years with just a small amount of females in a breeding program not necessarily here in UK or Europe but in the home countries. However the catch there is where do you release them too, as the main cause of their demise is local issues if the first place.

These issues are almost always overlooked in favour of sensational headlines in pockie prices in the UK,US and Europe, to shift the blame sideways. These often overprice introduction prices within a few years are reduced to extremely low cost spiderlings as captive breed stock soon out ways demand.


CATCH 22 comes to mind, the very people who could help, wanted to help and have the data and experience in breeding won't be asked to help but just blamed as part, or the complete problem in the first place!....

Regards
Mark

[Nicola Dolby]

I think the answer to this has already been stated. There ARE captive breeding programmes going on and it is possible to sustain a captive bred population of any species as we have seen countless times. Should there become an opportunity for a re-introduction into the wild in the future then this can be done. Take a generation or two and simulate their habitat conditions and then try re-introducing them. Okay this does not account for predators or deseise but then people can't be expected to use these as "natural condition simulation". As we have seen with generations of Poecilotheria in captivity the neurotoxic venom effects on primates has not diminished over generations so they should be capable of defending themselves after re-introduction. That just leaves the issue of deseise, which we can't do anything about (I think). So the solution is keep the captive breeding programmes going, if people can get as many specimens out as possible and NOT for profit and lets have some more generations of this Pokie running around. Oh and as for the "authorities" whose beurocracy and atitude could lead to the animals extinction in the wild; and the "do-gooders" whose obsession with keeping the species in the wild could result in the same event, stuff them. The spider's survival comes first. Just my opinion.

[James Box]

i agree, Nicola.
everyone thinks it's best to just leave things in the wild, but the way things are going, there won't be much "wild" left, and if we weren't attempting to keep these things going SOMEWHERE and hopefully breeding them too, then they'd be doomed.

[Phil Rea]

Quite right Phil - but we care though and as long as the society is supported by like minded people we might one day get somewhere.

The even sadder fact is they are happy to blame societies, hobbyists and a like for the demise of certain sp, yet never really want to blame habitat destruction, local prejudices, or use of pesticides.

If they are happy to state 500 adults left this can be double or tripled within one to two years with just a small amount of females in a breeding program not necessarily here in UK or Europe but in the home countries. However the catch there is where do you release them too, as the main cause of their demise is local issues if the first place.

These issues are almost always overlooked in favour of sensational headlines in pockie prices in the UK,US and Europe, to shift the blame sideways. These often overprice introduction prices within a few years are reduced to extremely low cost spiderlings as captive breed stock soon out ways demand.

CATCH 22 comes to mind, the very people who could help, wanted to help and have the data and experience in breeding won't be asked to help but just blamed as part, or the complete problem in the first place!....

Regards
Mark

I agree wholeheartedly Mark. Unfortunately it is easier (and cheaper) for them to blame hobbyists, than deal with the actual problem in the first place

Captive breeding is also a good thing, but if there's nowhere to re-introduce them, then it's a futile effort.

I think the answer to this has already been stated. There ARE captive breeding programmes going on and it is possible to sustain a captive bred population of any species as we have seen countless times. Should there become an opportunity for a re-introduction into the wild in the future then this can be done. Take a generation or two and simulate their habitat conditions and then try re-introducing them. Okay this does not account for predators or deseise but then people can't be expected to use these as "natural condition simulation". As we have seen with generations of Poecilotheria in captivity the neurotoxic venom effects on primates has not diminished over generations so they should be capable of defending themselves after re-introduction. That just leaves the issue of deseise, which we can't do anything about (I think). So the solution is keep the captive breeding programmes going, if people can get as many specimens out as possible and NOT for profit and lets have some more generations of this Pokie running around. Oh and as for the "authorities" whose beurocracy and atitude could lead to the animals extinction in the wild; and the "do-gooders" whose obsession with keeping the species in the wild could result in the same event, stuff them. The spider's survival comes first. Just my opinion.

I don't think venom toxicity would be an issue. If their habitat is no longer there, then where are they going to go? Unfortunately, whether reintroduced or native, no trees = no pokies.

[James Box]

also true, Phil.
typical of how the world is run...find easy scapegoats, shift the blame...nothing gets done, but at least the beaurocrats get to tick their little boxes that they like so much. this creates the illusion that they are "doing something" and despite the fact that NO ONE is fooled by this, it's enough for them to get by.

when i conquer this pitiful planet, the beaurocrats and tycoons will be out on the streets begging.
once that's done, we might be able to start reforesting the planet and reintroducing species.

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi

What am I suppose to belive here?
This report that states there are less than 500 in the wild (stil I think a good number when compared to other speices of animal or even some other spiders most proberly), or should I belive the book :-
Ornament vogelspinnen, die gattung Poecilotheria by Krehenwinkel, Maerklin & Kroes, that states that because of the numerious planting's of Tamarind trees in the area, it is not rare to see plantations with hundreds of specimens of this species!

Besides all this in regards to the captive breeding, I was under the impression that anyone who keeps and breeds this species in captivity was to be more or less shuned by the BTS and it members etc etc (not that I all out agreeded with this anyway) but there you go.

Where as I agree about the more public awareness the better for inverts I can't help think that, public awareness in a place where it is not so much needed draws it away from the species that could really benifit from having it.
cheers
Chris

[James Box]

Besides all this in regards to the captive breeding, I was under the impression that anyone who keeps and breeds this species in captivity was to be more or less shuned by the BTS and it members etc etc (not that I all out agreeded with this anyway) but there you go.

why is that? i wasn't notified of any "shunning" policy

[Phil Rea]

Besides all this in regards to the captive breeding, I was under the impression that anyone who keeps and breeds this species in captivity was to be more or less shuned by the BTS and it members etc etc (not that I all out agreeded with this anyway) but there you go.

I don't think there was ever any shunning Chris

Many people, BTS members or not (and myself included) simply stated at the time that they would not be keeping this species, whether hobby specimens were available or not, and irrespective of how they were originally obtained.

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi
Well maybe shuned could be too strong a word but if you see some of the comments made in this thread:-

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=7906

for example :-

this highlighted one:-

Many key people in the hobby, both in the Societies and the Trade would also regard any collecting of this spider from the proposed sanctuary with anathema and it is likely that any maverick who attempted to do so would become a cursed thing in a very small hobby.

or one:-

I notice MarkP's removed a part of an ad for this species on the BTS classifieds. Good thing too

I think I can be forgiven for this line of thought. Besides I remember very well many of the views and oppinions that were given in conversation when the crap it the fan so to speak when they were first advertised for sale.

why is that? i wasn't notified of any "shunning" policy

should you have been?

Cheers
Chris

[Mark Pennell]

I notice MarkP's removed a part of an ad for this species on the BTS classifieds. Good thing too



Cheers
Chris

Chris
Basically the BTS got a lot of flack over the proposed sanctuary and we have not or will not make public some of the documentation which contains some rather insulting and accusations levied at us at the time.

At a BTS meeting we discussed and decided that we would not allow the sale of this species at the BTS show or on the BTS classifieds.

As surely or not one day it would come back and kick us up the a**e.

We can with clear conscience 5 years down the road say that we cannot be linked to the dimise of this species. So that stone could not be thrown at us again should the oppertunity present itself for the society and it membership to step up and try to get this back of the ground again.

Thing is this sp might not to be as need of protection as another but for now ist in the press and being used as a tool. Personally P, smithi is more in danger but its not news worthy I guess.

its always going to be a sticky subject and we have just got to rise above it and get on with things as best we all can. As we all know just a few adults can breed a lot of spiderlings.

We all want the same thing and all fight for the same thing. The film Life of Brian comes to mind...


Cheers
Mark