Plastic Tubs V Naturalistic Enclosures

[Aragorn Davies]

Hi Pete,

I think they are a waste of time and money, the more complicated the enclosure the more care it needs, one of the pics had Ivy in it which is toxic, so cricket eats ivy spider eats cricket spider may die (i dont know but wouldnt take the risk).

When breeding spiders (ones with a dry season) you might kill the plants which means you have to replant again, causing more disturbance, to much disturbance and less chance of an eggsac or greater chance of the eggsac eaten by being disturbed,

Lots of hiding places means more places for dead crickets to go un-noticed attracting Phorid flies which are the main suspect for transmitting nematode worms.

But it is up to the individual, you can give advice then it is up to the person to take it or leave it, I know how I keep mine and have had lots of breeding succsess.

And many Sericopelma sp I have found have been on barren roadside embankments, in fact many of the 16 species seen on this trip have been on barren roadside embankments, so my plastic boxes are pretty naturalistic

Ray

Hey nice to meet ya,,So if i am reading between the lines right, what your saying is that ultimately to proved proper care free from infestation, free from maintenance and a good easy approach to breading which in the long term is better for both T and keeper, stick with some dirt a pot and something basic to put it all in, which from a visual stand point is an eye sore but from the health of the tarantula and simplicity of care stand point is a lot better than the naturalistic set ups which are a total wast of money..and could be potentially be harmfull to your T if you don't look after them correct or use the correct fauna.....

Isn't the point of the naturalistic set up exactly that, to create what you would reasonably expect to find in its natural habitat, leaving plenty of options for creativity vs practicality,,,because the ranges in said habitats (except maybe those rainforest Tarantula) can be vary varied, which includes those that you mention....and yes personal preference is absolutely key, plus off course a healthy dash of enthusiasm from us noobs lol to deciding on whether you wish the complexity of maintenance in the creation of your little naturalist bio sphere...Realistically the Tarantula probably couldn't give two hoots if its living in one or the other, but then it makes you wonder why so much fuss over simple things like substrate material, or humidity, when you read that vermiculite is a possible cause for your T to be climbing the walls because it just cant stand to walk on it, or that humidity must be low or high for specific species, when in reality these are small steps to providing at least the very basics of what is required for its care primarily linked to the nature of its natural habitat passed on to us by those that research this stuff in the field..if this info wasn't available then would we keep them all in the same conditions? or if you go and collect from the wild and know that a specific T is in a burrow with high humidity you create at the very least a burrow with humidity. This surely is just the start of a process that in the end leads to something a little more complicated should you so desire to go that bit further with trying to replicate its home???

[Ray Gabriel]

Hey nice to meet ya,,So if i am reading between the lines right, what your saying is that ultimately to proved proper care free from infestation, free from maintenance and a good easy approach to breading which in the long term is better for both T and keeper, stick with some dirt a pot and something basic to put it all in, which from a visual stand point is an eye sore but from the health of the tarantula and simplicity of care stand point is a lot better than the naturalistic set ups which are a total wast of money..and could be potentially be harmfull to your T if you don't look after them correct or use the correct fauna.....

Isn't the point of the naturalistic set up exactly that, to create what you would reasonably expect to find in its natural habitat, leaving plenty of options for creativity vs practicality,,,because the ranges in said habitats (except maybe those rainforest Tarantula) can be vary varied, which includes those that you mention....and yes personal preference is absolutely key, plus off course a healthy dash of enthusiasm from us noobs lol to deciding on whether you wish the complexity of maintenance in the creation of your little naturalist bio sphere...Realistically the Tarantula probably couldn't give two hoots if its living in one or the other, but then it makes you wonder why so much fuss over simple things like substrate material, or humidity, when you read that vermiculite is a possible cause for your T to be climbing the walls because it just cant stand to walk on it, or that humidity must be low or high for specific species, when in reality these are small steps to providing at least the very basics of what is required for its care primarily linked to the nature of its natural habitat passed on to us by those that research this stuff in the field..if this info wasn't available then would we keep them all in the same conditions? or if you go and collect from the wild and know that a specific T is in a burrow with high humidity you create at the very least a burrow with humidity. This surely is just the start of a process that in the end leads to something a little more complicated should you so desire to go that bit further with trying to replicate its home???

Well most of my spiders are kept in boxes 1/2 - 3/4 full of coir and depending on species mixed with sand or cactus compost, giving the ability to burrow, in temperature controled heated cabinets giving a seasonal temperature drop and controlled wet and dry seasons. Much more natural than in the tanks pictured here for a staret the substrate is not deep enough. OH and no species in the world is found naturally on vermiculite.

So tell me how would you keep Aphonopelma species in "naturalistic" tanks? Sericopelma? S. hoffmanni? Avicularia? Poecilotheria? the list goes on but I would like you to tell me how you would design tanks for these genera.

Small point we have no idea what the natural enviroment for most (95%) of the species we have in captivity............just guesses

Ray

[Nicola Dolby]

I think at the end of the day it comes down to personal preference, as stated above. Whilst it is extra maintenance cleaning tanks etc. that depends on what the individual keeper wants. I use tanks because I like them, I like how it looks (possibly an extention of the "fish-tank" syndrome if you like). Not everyone wants to breed tarantulas either, some of us just keep them because we want them around, for want of a better phrase. As for mapping climate conditions and general environments, for many we know where they are found in the wild and in what vague conditions, for example we know to put arborials in housing with a bark tube to simulate a hollow tree trunk. As for climate conditions, we have an idea when these animals breed, and the internet can tell us the weather conditions for a particular day pretty much anywhere in the world now. Finally I doubt that anyone would be too keen to put live plants in a tank with crickets anyway unless they are repellant to them, crickets are renown for trying to eat anything (even my fingers on more than one occasion)! As for creating a mess, yes they do but not a chronic one, nothing that wouldn't be dealt with during normal cleaning. Also woodlice are very good in wet conditions for cleaning up mess on a small level, and in dry tanks the crickets dry out quickly if not removed immediately anyway. Myself I have never had phorid flies and hope never to do so, I wouldn't wish them on anyone. So at the end of the day its personal choice, however I do think that all should be encouraged in the hobby, and provided the spiders are happy and healthy then whether they are kept in cereal containers or elaborate tanks is the choice of the individual.

[Nicola Dolby]

Can I also add to what I have stated above by saying that in no way do accept that tarantulas cannot be bred in tank setups. Whilst not prolific, all egg sacks my females have produced have been in tanks.

[Aragorn Davies]

Well most of my spiders are kept in boxes 1/2 - 3/4 full of coir and depending on species mixed with sand or cactus compost, giving the ability to burrow, in temperature controled heated cabinets giving a seasonal temperature drop and controlled wet and dry seasons. Much more natural than in the tanks pictured here for a staret the substrate is not deep enough. OH and no species in the world is found naturally on vermiculite.

So tell me how would you keep Aphonopelma species in "naturalistic" tanks? Sericopelma? S. hoffmanni? Avicularia? Poecilotheria? the list goes on but I would like you to tell me how you would design tanks for these genera.

Small point we have no idea what the natural enviroment for most (95%) of the species we have in captivity............just guesses

Ray

Hey thanks for the reply, i hope i haven't offended in any way thats not my intention, please remember i am new to this and as such am full of questions and enthusiasm as with some others on this site....so please be gentle ...ooooeerrr lol.....

OK so i don't know how big your boxes are and as such i don't know the depth of substrate that 1/2 to 3/4 full equates to, i am guessing 5" or more...i know in the area that the burrow is situated in my latest effort the substrate depth is about 5" so i hope that will be sufficient if not i will make it deeper please let me know, its not difficult to do as the set up is not that complicated, plus the cork bark tube used to replicate the opening and provide some stability in the soil. umm i know vermiculite is not natural, my point was it was used and recommended until people realised its rubbish and resorted to more natural substrates...

When you say temperature controlled heat cabinets providing seasonal temperature drops with controlled wet and dry seasons, do you do this to replicate the general atmospheric/climate of the areas that your collections come from or do you do it to provide a completely artificial seasonal variation that has no conformity to there natural environment/climate? i am assuming (i hate to assume) that for your needs, you need to provide some sort of seasonal variation with the appropriate wet and dry seasons to compliment the Tarantulas natural life cycle especially if wild caught, which assists to some degree to increasing there mating potential and productivity?

If thats so, then surely apart from the fauna, the general climate conditions are set up to meet the natural conditions(within reason), not just for look but to achieve the desired result of 1, producing correct seasonal variations so that 2, during study and reproduction cycles the results are predictable so you know when to mate and when not to,,,is this not then even more specific to creating a natural climate which provides the levels of predictability you require....lol few, if i got that right.....

OK re your points about the above genus mentioned

Well as you know i am a nooob to hobby, but i also understand that there some 900 species to be accounted for in the scope of the tarantula if there is 900 species of which we know nothing of the environment of 95% of them that means that there 855 species in geographical locations for which we know nothing about the environment of those locations,,is that right???? i can understand we have no idea of the behaviors of 95%... there is a possible diversity of 113 genera and 897 species possibly more, around the world of which i cannot possibly tell you how to provide naturalist enclosure for each and every one, all i could do at best is to research each genus i decide to care for and provide accordingly, which in turn helps me to understand a little of those i choose to care for. You mention aphonopelma, Sericopelma? S. hoffmanni? Avicularia? Poecilotheria,,well to be honest i have never owned any of these, (i am getting a pokie soon though).. and by all accounts there is little known off each species, but much is know of the habitats that they inhabit so extrapolating the information of there habitats to create an appropriate enclosure may not be to difficult....lol except the aborials because i cant grow trees in my T room as much as i would like to....

Anyway during writing this and reading about info on the tarantulas you mention i am begging to understand that climatic control as appose to natural display is probably more important in the development of a comfortable environment achieving the correct level of precipitation vs humidity and temperature fluctuations vs seasonal change may be key in creating that natural environment??????, ,,,fauna is down to artist license i guess as, but i do agree with nicoladolby points....
so is it, Natural Display housing? Climate correct housing? or bio sphere housing?.......

[Jacob Fredrickson]

I think the key is not to go the full hog but not so basic. Get cork bark and plants, be they plastic or real, of which some plastics are quite pretty and try to make something interesting but easy to maintain. I'll post some pics of my new setups soon .

[Aragorn Davies]

I think the key is not to go the full hog but not so basic. Get cork bark and plants, be they plastic or real, of which some plastics are quite pretty and try to make something interesting but easy to maintain. I'll post some pics of my new setups soon .

yer i know what ya mean i guess sometimes its easy to over complicate things, thing i find with plastic plants is they cost more than the T's sometimes lol,,i have plastic tubs brought from B&Q super cheap that i have cork bark and plastic plants in, i do like them for the simplicity i still prefer the look of real plants and moss though, looking forward to seeing ya pictures

[Jacob Fredrickson]

Here is my new E.Truculentus enclosure:

And my P.Iriminia sling tank:

Avic sp Guyana:
Avicularia Versicolor:

[Nicola Dolby]

Beautiful Jacob! What size tank are you using for the versicolour? I really like the set ups you have there

[Jacob Fredrickson]

Using a Exo-Terra Nano for the versi. Thanks for complement . It's good to just add a bit of colour and texture, just to make it more enjoyable.

[Aragorn Davies]

They look excellent I have two more tanks which I may go for the artificial look and see how they go.

[Ray Gabriel]

Hey thanks for the reply, i hope i haven't offended in any way thats not my intention, please remember i am new to this and as such am full of questions and enthusiasm as with some others on this site....so please be gentle ...ooooeerrr lol.....

OK so i don't know how big your boxes are and as such i don't know the depth of substrate that 1/2 to 3/4 full equates to, i am guessing 5" or more...i know in the area that the burrow is situated in my latest effort the substrate depth is about 5" so i hope that will be sufficient if not i will make it deeper please let me know, its not difficult to do as the set up is not that complicated, plus the cork bark tube used to replicate the opening and provide some stability in the soil. umm i know vermiculite is not natural, my point was it was used and recommended until people realised its rubbish and resorted to more natural substrates...

When you say temperature controlled heat cabinets providing seasonal temperature drops with controlled wet and dry seasons, do you do this to replicate the general atmospheric/climate of the areas that your collections come from or do you do it to provide a completely artificial seasonal variation that has no conformity to there natural environment/climate? i am assuming (i hate to assume) that for your needs, you need to provide some sort of seasonal variation with the appropriate wet and dry seasons to compliment the Tarantulas natural life cycle especially if wild caught, which assists to some degree to increasing there mating potential and productivity?

If thats so, then surely apart from the fauna, the general climate conditions are set up to meet the natural conditions(within reason), not just for look but to achieve the desired result of 1, producing correct seasonal variations so that 2, during study and reproduction cycles the results are predictable so you know when to mate and when not to,,,is this not then even more specific to creating a natural climate which provides the levels of predictability you require....lol few, if i got that right.....

OK re your points about the above genus mentioned

Well as you know i am a nooob to hobby, but i also understand that there some 900 species to be accounted for in the scope of the tarantula if there is 900 species of which we know nothing of the environment of 95% of them that means that there 855 species in geographical locations for which we know nothing about the environment of those locations,,is that right???? i can understand we have no idea of the behaviors of 95%... there is a possible diversity of 113 genera and 897 species possibly more, around the world of which i cannot possibly tell you how to provide naturalist enclosure for each and every one, all i could do at best is to research each genus i decide to care for and provide accordingly, which in turn helps me to understand a little of those i choose to care for. You mention aphonopelma, Sericopelma? S. hoffmanni? Avicularia? Poecilotheria,,well to be honest i have never owned any of these, (i am getting a pokie soon though).. and by all accounts there is little known off each species, but much is know of the habitats that they inhabit so extrapolating the information of there habitats to create an appropriate enclosure may not be to difficult....lol except the aborials because i cant grow trees in my T room as much as i would like to....

Anyway during writing this and reading about info on the tarantulas you mention i am begging to understand that climatic control as appose to natural display is probably more important in the development of a comfortable environment achieving the correct level of precipitation vs humidity and temperature fluctuations vs seasonal change may be key in creating that natural environment??????, ,,,fauna is down to artist license i guess as, but i do agree with nicoladolby points....
so is it, Natural Display housing? Climate correct housing? or bio sphere housing?.......

Hi cannot work out this quote thing, sorry for late reply been working in cloud fgorest with no interweb, in dodgy interweb cafe with dodgy keyboard so appologies for misspellings etc

YES i studied the natural climate of tarantulas and adjusted the cabinets accordingly, in fact i was one of the first along with Jason Davis (Scorpiologist) to realise that climate was paramount to spider breeding, and at the early stages was laughed at.

Aphonopelma sp in Panama live in burrows 7" deep and 12" horizontal with a chamber at the end, which in the dry season is equivalent to concret so for a "naturalistic enviroment" for this spo alone you need a jumbo pet pal 3/4 filled with mud which can be dried out in the dry seaason and turned back into mud in the wet season how do you replicate that without the specific sp of Panamanian grass which can survive wet and dry seasons?

The S. hoffmanni we found in Panama was in a burrow almost 75cmdeep how do you replicate thata as a "naturaralistic enviroment?" msany Sericopelma sp live in abandoned holes in the ground on vertical roadside faces 3-4 m high how do you replicate that in an exo terra tank?

IMHO all these naturalistic vivaria are nothing but what pleases the owner not the spider.............makes the owner feel better by providing what they think is naturalist enviroment...........not what the spiders are actually found in. Google jungle and then work out how many different types of jungle there are and then try to relate that to your spider from Ecuador or Peru..........then you will realise we havent got a clue where they come from.......

Anyway must go as i have work to do playing with spiders in the jungle ........mixed deciduose cloud forest...with 3 new sp to science, then of to Nicaragua soon for dry deciduose lowland jungle for research.

I refered to spiders in the pet trade not the complete sp list..........but who knows where they were cpollected as it is almost impossible to get accurate collecting data from the exporters.

RayG

[Aragorn Davies]

Hi cannot work out this quote thing, sorry for late reply been working in cloud fgorest with no interweb, in dodgy interweb cafe with dodgy keyboard so appologies for misspellings etc

lol guess you can be forgiven under the circumstances.......

YES i studied the natural climate of tarantulas and adjusted the cabinets accordingly, in fact i was one of the first along with Jason Davis (Scorpiologist) to realise that climate was paramount to spider breeding, and at the early stages was laughed at.

whats that old adage "he who laughs last, shall have the last laugh"...thats the problem with the human species, we are not in touch with our surroundings and due to our abilities to manipulate everything save the weather we don't need to breed according to climate/seasonal changes, its easy to forget that some species complying with seasonal requirements to ensure longevity is of paramount importance, breeding during monsoon or wet times may mean flooding which means death to some, while timing it to meet the end of the period may mean a good healthy brood...as a crude example lol,,i can see the logic of creating climate controlled systems to meet the necessity to produce a natural feel and sit with the evolutionary instinct to follow the season especially for breeding cycles..earlyer you said about wet and dry season, how do you set up a system to produce seasonal wet and dry patterns???

Aphonopelma sp in Panama live in burrows 7" deep and 12" horizontal with a chamber at the end, which in the dry season is equivalent to concret so for a "naturalistic enviroment" for this spo alone you need a jumbo pet pal 3/4 filled with mud which can be dried out in the dry seaason and turned back into mud in the wet season how do you replicate that without the specific sp of Panamanian grass which can survive wet and dry seasons?


The S. hoffmanni we found in Panama was in a burrow almost 75cmdeep how do you replicate thata as a "naturaralistic enviroment?" msany Sericopelma sp live in abandoned holes in the ground on vertical roadside faces 3-4 m high how do you replicate that in an exo terra tank?

Yes indeed these are very specific variables that would make the process i guess more difficult to create the "natural Environment" as appose to a natural looking environment, however i am not sure but i should imagine that there are a few out of the 900 species (or there abouts) where it would be possible to create a "snapshot" of the type of habitat they would naturally be found...and i guess there is a distinction to be made about the specifics of the way in which the perception of someones creation in a tank is to be made, for a "Natural" type situation i would agree in fact that for some if not most it may be almost impossible to create, unless your prepared to go the full monty, complete with climatic control and seasonal changes flora and fauna, micro-organisms and local insect species for food and so on, thus on a scale of 1, being mud and a whole to 10 being the full Natural set up most would struggle to get past 1 with a few at 2, and maybee 3.....given the level of interpretation in to the Term "Natural" i guess definition would have to fit on that scale ...
somewhere....

IMHO all these naturalistic vivaria are nothing but what pleases the owner not the spider.............makes the owner feel better by providing what they think is naturalist enviroment...........not what the spiders are actually found in........

i will have to concede that seeing my stirmi in a tank which Resembles a small snapshot say a piece of land 45x45 does make me feel somewhat satisfied that i have at least made the effort to go that bit further with look, lol until i get florid fly infestation or some other thing that causes concern, and i guess there we go back to the definition of natural as appose to natural looking which may in-fact be nothing like the environment from which it comes...i know i did buy plants species which have come from the rainforest's which specifically i am not sure but i think Asplenium and bromiliad are seen quite extensively in Rain forests generally, however i will admit that at ground level bromiliads may not be as common but asplenium is at least terrestrial as well...you have me on the climate and seasonal control though ....and to be honest i do like to see how we interpret what we perceive to be a natural habitat or should i say natural looking then create something that does look quite good, even when not correct to exacting specifics of the geographic for said genus.....back to definition again lol

Google jungle and then work out how many different types of jungle there are and then try to relate that to your spider from Ecuador or Peru..........then you will realise we havent got a clue where they come from.......

thats a fair point and it does make you realise that in our attempt to recreate and understand we know very little really!!

I refered to spiders in the pet trade not the complete sp list..........but who knows where they were cpollected as it is almost impossible to get accurate collecting data from the exporters........

And this may be the one real determining factor which scuppers our endeavours to truly create the life like, unless you collect them your selfs, we are reallying on what is to me a noob somewhat conflicting info for some species and you have no real idea from where they came just the ability to generalise then apply artistic licence i guess...

Anyway must go as i have work to do playing with spiders in the jungle ........mixed deciduose cloud forest...with 3 new sp to science, then of to Nicaragua soon for dry deciduose lowland jungle for research........

ahhh shucks you guys have all the fun if ya need someone to carry ya bags give me a shout lol.......

take care its a jungle out there

[david clarke]

Hi

I am totally new to this game. However, I can make enclosures to your specific requirements. Postage is extra and you need to provide details. Please email nobblette@goolemail.com with your telephone contact details, and I'll discuss your needs. My enclosures are made from 5 mm Acrylic made to your bespoke needs.

David

[James Box]

sounds good, David... good luck!

i must say (not read the thread properly yet, just Pete's opening post really and Ray's latest reply)...i do keep many spiders in a utilitarian style currently, and have found that generally works well AND i can see the spider, which for me is the most important thing (if i wanted potted plants, i'd learn how to grow them). my understanding, like Ray's, is that while climate is important, going all out with massive, naturalistic set ups is for the benefit of the keeper not the kept. you'd be lucky to see the spider in some set ups i've seen, and in some cases, the spiders don't seem to realise they're visible (like my P muticus, for example, who has dug right up to the glass).

i think there's definitely some validity to the idea that plant controlled humidity is probably better regulated than daily mistings, and ventilation is definitely important...and also, the placement of heat sources and light sources probably are important as well, though the latter can be very difficult to control depending on the size of your collection vs the size of your house. certainly, some scorpions would probably act alot more naturally if provided with a day/night cycle. this may be good for burrowing spiders as well, who could do the bum warming thing Brachy's do in the wild, etc. and it seems logical that a happy creature would be alot more likely to breed.

it must be said that someone that bred Aphonopelma moderatum did so by placing the mated female in a deli cup. she webbed it up and treated it like it was her chamber at the bottom of a deep burrow. she made and tended a successful sac. this is far from naturalistic aesthetically, but very close to naturalistic practically. there is a difference...and sometimes the latter can be easier to achieve if the former is thrown out the window.

that being said, i was also challenged by Mr Smith's excellent write-up. certainly some satisfaction can be attained by creating a natural set up. one has to be philosophical though, as many spiders can and will destroy your carefully crafted miniature landscape

some of my prettiest set ups were me providing a few necessities (dirt and some bark) and a couple extra bits like plastic leaves, and the spider just happened to make it prettier with webbing and digging...

also, i love live substrate. i use coir and whatever else i have to hand, and add woodlice. often, i see tiny bugs wandering around in it...substrate mites among them, but not the only thing. sometimes springtails as well appear. it's very hard to keep substrate totally sterile...i only nuke aspen for the snakes i have that have it as their substrate...and that's just to prevent snake mites. for spiders, it's pointless worrying about things like that.