Help Please!!!

[fenella bashiri]

My mature G Rosea shed a couple of days ago (first time she has shed in over a year) and is just not right at all now. Most of her legs are wonky, she is having a lot of trouble walking and has a reddish discharge on her chelicera. She keeps lying in her water bowl as well. She is also half the size she was before! We have put her in ITU a small tub with damp tissue in a warm dark place for now, to try and help. Any ideas what the discharge is? And is she likely to die? Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated-thanks!

[James Box]

hi mate, it sounds like a bad moult...but hard to know. do you have the tarantula keeper's guide by Schultz & Schultz? there is some medical stuff in there, though i don't recall if they had anything for bad moults or not.

keep trying, but i wouldn't get your hopes up, i'm afraid. i've had some get like that and not make it no matter what i tried. and sometimes i think trying too much just hastens the end anyway. bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

all i can say is good luck to you and your spider

[Stanley A. Schultz]

Since you do not tell us how well you know tarantulas I am going to assume that you are a relative newbie so that we are sure to cover all the points.

My mature G Rosea ...

What makes you think it's mature?

... shed a couple of days ago (first time she has shed in over a year) ...

What makes you think it's a female?

... and has a reddish discharge on her chelicera. ...

Describe the discharge. Liquid? Solid? Powder? Spider "blood" (the correct name is hemolymph or haemolymph) is blue/gray. As far as I know, no spider fluid is red, which makes me wonder what's going on.

... She keeps lying in her water bowl as well. She is also half the size she was before! ...

What precisely is half the size? Body mass? Leg span? Body length? Weight? Is it the whole spider? Or, just the front half? Or, just the rear half?

... We have put her in ITU a small tub with damp tissue in a warm dark place for now, to try and help. ...

Do you mean an ICU? Or something else?

... Any ideas what the discharge is? .

At the moment not a clue. But, see below.

... Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated-thanks!

First, for the record, please read The Care and Husbandry of the Chilean Rose Tarantula even if you may have read it sometime ago. It's recently been updated.

Next, we need lots of photos of both the tarantula and the cage it was/is in. Use your cell phone camera or borrow one from a friend if you have to. Take pictures from all sides. Get as close as you can and still maintain decent focus.

I am wondering if you have a mature male that has experienced a post-ultimate molt. Male tarantulas experience an ultimate molt during which they become sexually mature. Shortly thereafter most of them die. However, rarely, a mature male will go through yet another molt, a post-ultimate molt. Usually these die during the process, but a very, very few manage to complete it and survive for a few more months. However, these few always manage to lose their pedipalps in the process. Males that have survived a post-ultimate molt have abnormally long, weak legs, and abnormally small abdomens, and generally look sick and are very weak.

The kicker is that Chilean rose tarantulas are notorious for doing this much more commonly than any other species.

Get back to us on this thread ASAP so we can try to answer your questions and maybe offer some insight.

[Craig Mackay]

Hi Fenella,

Does the reddish discharge look anything like the pictures in this link: http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum...uid&highlight=

As far as I know, no spider fluid is red, which makes me wonder what's going on.

See the link above Stan, you might find the pictures interesting.

[Stanley A. Schultz]

Hi Fenella,

Does the reddish discharge look anything like the pictures in this link: http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum...uid&highlight=


See the link above Stan, you might find the pictures interesting.

HOLY FREAKING COW!

That was posted on the end of last October only a few days after Marguerite passed away, so I have a good excuse for not seeing it or commenting, but I'm sorry I missed it!

Wait! That was all wrong! I didn't even know about that forum, but have now registered. Thanks for the referral!

The red pigment is obviously not hemoglobin; it's the wrong shade. But, the major question is, "What could it be from?" The next question is obviously, "What killed that tarantula?"

In answer to the first question, as a knee jerk response, I can say that it could be the normal red pigment from the tarantula's new exoskeleton that's dissolved in leaked hemolymph. Yes, I know that Heterothele villosella is brown to black, but remember that brown can be produced by mixing red pigment with black. It's a good story anyway.

But, that then begs the question, "What happened that caused the pigment to leak out of the new exoskeleton into the hemolymph?" The entire molting sequence is a carefully orchestrated and timed choreography of events that would include, among many other things, the development of the appropriate pigments at the correct time. Ordinarily, however, these pigments are normally sequestered within cells. If my original hypothesis is correct, what could have messed up the molting process so badly as to have ruptured those cells and released the pigment? Whatever it was, it undoubtedly killed that tarantula as well! Which sort of answers my second question.

All of the above, of course, is pure conjecture.

Getting back to the current issue of Fenella Bashiri's G. rosea, I am waiting with bated breath to see some photos of her tarantula. Fenella, please submit at least a few ASAP!

[fenella bashiri]

Thanks for all the replies! I know she is female as i have had tarantulas molt into males before so i know what they look like! She is mature because i got her second/third hand, so have no real idea of exactly how old she is. The red fluid on her chelicera is like the pictures Craig posted, just not as bad. She is still alive, using her legs more now, and moving her chelicera and i have seen her fangs moving too. I do have the book The Tarantula Keepers Guide, which is where i got the idea for ICU/ITU. I havetaken pics-not very good ones as she is so scrunched up!

[Stanley A. Schultz]

Fenella Bashiri -

Thanks for responding so quickly.

... I know she is female as i have had tarantulas molt into males before so i know what they look like! ...

Tarantulas do not "molt into males..." They're males or females from the moment that the egg is fertilized. As far as we know, there are no sex changes among tarantulas. That may seem like a silly statement to some of you, but sex changes are well known among many insects and fish, and the sex of crocodilians is often determined by the incubation temperature of the nest. The close link between the XY set of chromosomes and sex is much closer among mammals than among a lot of other animal groups. And, you don't want to get me started about plants...

Immature tarantula males very closely resemble immature and mature tarantula females. It takes a practiced eye to distinguish the two sexes among immatures, and the practice is always more a matter of probability rather than certainty. There is one way that we can be reasonably (say 90%) certain of an immature tarantula's sex: We can look for certain key parts in the shed exoskeleton (exuvia or exuvium, the experts are still undecided about whether the Latin word's gender is male or female!). And, you are very lucky in that you did not throw away the shed skin. See below.

... She is mature because i got her second/third hand, so have no real idea of exactly how old she is. ...

Neither of these characteristics ("second/third hand" or "how old she is") have anything at all to do with whether it's male or female. Almost.

Because males don't live as long a females, from a statistical point of view there will be more females than males in any random population, wild or captive. But, note that this doesn't have anything to do with their relative numbers as they come out of the eggsac. It's a survivability thing. Because the females out-survive the males, there are more of them. So, the probability of you getting a female are greater if you acquire a "fully grown" individual than if you acquire a baby. (But, the Devil must take his due. The downside of this is that the fully grown individual will not live as long for you as the baby.)

It would appear that your tarantula is fully grown or nearly so, so the probability is greater that it's a female, but there's no guaranty of it.

Now, here's how to tell almost for sure if it's male or female.

Make a dish soap solution by mixing 2 or 3 drops of liquid dish detergent into a cup of warm tap water and set it aside. Collect a couple of toothpicks, an eye dropper, and a pair of tweezers or forceps. The kind used for pulling unwanted hairs by women will work, but may be a bit clumsy. The kind used in a biology lab work better. Work on a saucer or dinner plate. Some people like to use a small square of paper toweling on the plate to help absorb extra soap water and to help hold the exuvia in place. Place the exuvia right-side up on the plate and carefully drip a few drops of the soap water solution on the rear part of the skin. (I've circled it in the accompanying image.)


(Click, double-click, or right-click the thumbnails for larger images. Click the larger images to see them full size.)

The circled part is merely the skin from the abdomen rolled lengthwise. (Sometimes it's also twisted like a rope). After it's had a few minutes to soften you need to use the toothpicks and/or tweezers/forceps to uncoil and open it up. Eventually, you should see something that resembles this. (My photo is of an almost perfect, dried skin. Yours won't be so pretty. That's okay. Keep working.)



The red arrows point to the forward book lungs. Between them and connecting their rear edges you should be able to see a crease of some sort in the skin (circled in blue). If it's just a thin, simple crease you have a male (mature or immature, it doesn't matter). If you see a distinct little flap of skin, sometimes referred to as a leaf or dam, it's a female (again, both immature and mature look like this).

Here is a pair of photos to illustrate what I'm talking about. They're of a different species, but the basic principle is the same.



Okay, now we have that out of the way.

... The red fluid on her chelicera is like the pictures Craig posted, just not as bad. She is still alive, using her legs more now, and moving her chelicera and i have seen her fangs moving too. ...

Good! Do not be afraid to put it back into the ICU for 2 or 3 days if it begins to lose ground again.

... I do have the book The Tarantula Keepers Guide, which is where i got the idea for ICU/ITU. ...

Excellent! Third edition, I hope? Don't fail to read the other books mentioned in Stan's Rant as well.

... I havetaken pics-not very good ones as she is so scrunched up! ...

Your photos were excellent. They told me exactly what I needed to know. I NEEDED to know about the scrunched up part. That was the whole point of asking for photos!

Your tarantula is definitely not a MATURE male that has undergone a post-ultimate molt, as I had suggested in a previous post. That doesn't mean it's not a male, however. Just that it has not yet matured.

This is all very new to me, and I have no clue about what you should do or what the outcome will be. Whatever it is, it's a tragedy. I wish I could help more. But, I'm as stumped as anyone else is.

I suggest that you care for this tarantula as best you can. Take frequent photos of the tarantula, what you're doing, and the equipment you're using, and file them away someplace for future reference.

Make sure that it always has constant access to water. Right now, water loss is its biggest problem. That's why you're using the ICU. If it can't move well enough to get to the water, you should use a shallower water dish (a jar lid maybe) and once or twice a week physically place its front end (mouth) in the water. Try not to allow it to get its rear end (abdomen) wet, although this probably wouldn't be a big disaster.

Your tarantula doesn't need to eat right now, and probably won't want to eat later because of its condition. In a couple of weeks, not sooner, I would kill a cricket, split it open to expose the juicy parts, and carefully slide it under the front end of the tarantula. Do this in the evening immediately before you turn out the lights so your pet will feel more protected and safe in the dark. Once you start trying to feed it, offer it a dead cricket once a week. If it gets strong enough, try it with a live cricket.

Tarantulas that have suffered some grievous physical trauma often molt sooner than expected. There have been cases where a healthy, injured tarantula shed it's skin within just a few months or even weeks after the previous molt, apparently in an effort to repair damage. Don't be too surprised if this happens with your pet. Even then, your pet's recovery could take a year or more. Or, it could still expire.

This and Craig's case point up the fact that we really know very little about these creatures' physiology, biochemistry, and medicine. I can only apologize for our ignorance.

Best of luck. Keep us posted!

[fenella bashiri]

Thanks for all the info! Did what you said and she is definately female-distinct flap evident! Think the reason why she looks so much smaller is just because her legs are all scrunched and deformed. Her abdomen is smaller,but her carapace is about the same size it was before. Keeping her in ICU for another day or so, but she is getting more active, so tempted to put her in a smaller tank when i mover her out of ICU just to help her preserve energy. And i will do the trick with the crickets like you said. Again thanks so much for all your help and advice-really appreciate it. She was my first tarantula (now have 12) and means a hell of a lot me-lets hoe she pulls through eh? Left in the hands of the gods i guess.... Fenella x

[Craig Mackay]

How is your spider Fenella? Hope you are seeing some more improvement.

HOLY FREAKING COW!

That was posted on the end of last October only a few days after Marguerite passed away, so I have a good excuse for not seeing it or commenting, but I'm sorry I missed it!

Wait! That was all wrong! I didn't even know about that forum, but have now registered. Thanks for the referral!

The red pigment is obviously not hemoglobin; it's the wrong shade. But, the major question is, "What could it be from?" The next question is obviously, "What killed that tarantula?"

In answer to the first question, as a knee jerk response, I can say that it could be the normal red pigment from the tarantula's new exoskeleton that's dissolved in leaked hemolymph. Yes, I know that Heterothele villosella is brown to black, but remember that brown can be produced by mixing red pigment with black. It's a good story anyway.

But, that then begs the question, "What happened that caused the pigment to leak out of the new exoskeleton into the hemolymph?" The entire molting sequence is a carefully orchestrated and timed choreography of events that would include, among many other things, the development of the appropriate pigments at the correct time. Ordinarily, however, these pigments are normally sequestered within cells. If my original hypothesis is correct, what could have messed up the molting process so badly as to have ruptured those cells and released the pigment? Whatever it was, it undoubtedly killed that tarantula as well! Which sort of answers my second question.

All of the above, of course, is pure conjecture.

Getting back to the current issue of Fenella Bashiri's G. rosea, I am waiting with bated breath to see some photos of her tarantula. Fenella, please submit at least a few ASAP!

Thanks for your input Stan. I hadn't considered pigment staining the fluid. I was at a complete loss for why there should be any red. It was certainly unpleasant and hopefully I won't see it again! There was nothing unusual about how the spider was being kept and it hadn't been subjected to any kind of (obvious) trauma other than producing a couple of egg sacs earlier in the year for me. Just bad luck I think.

[fenella bashiri]

Well so far so good! She is still alive. She remains in ICU, but i think i may move he back into her tank soon.Her legs still look really bad, but she can move them. I have seen 1 of her chelicera move, with fang, but not the other. Will just have to wait and see what happens i guess .

[Stanley A. Schultz]

Well so far so good! She is still alive. She remains in ICU, but i think i may move he back into her tank soon.Her legs still look really bad, but she can move them. I have seen 1 of her chelicera move, with fang, but not the other. Will just have to wait and see what happens i guess .

All this is encouraging. She's one very sick spider, but there's still a lot of hope for her...and you! Keep up the good work, take lots of photos, and keep us posted on how things go. Continue to use this thread so we have a history to build on.

Best of luck!

[fenella bashiri]

Just a quick update-she is still alive! 2 weeks now after the moult. she is out of ICU and in a small tank instead of her large one. She can get about by shuffling only, cannot support her own bodyweight or flick as her legs dont move that well. But she is still with us so going to try feeding her today and see what happens.The reddish discharge that was on her chelicera has now gone white-looks kinda crystalised? She has developed a serious attitude haha, which is so different from how she was before the moult-incredibly docile. Will post pics tomorrow if i have time.

[Stanley A. Schultz]

Just a quick update-she is still alive! 2 weeks now after the moult. she is out of ICU and in a small tank instead of her large one. She can get about by shuffling only, cannot support her own bodyweight or flick as her legs dont move that well. But she is still with us so going to try feeding her today and see what happens.The reddish discharge that was on her chelicera has now gone white-looks kinda crystalised? She has developed a serious attitude haha, which is so different from how she was before the moult-incredibly docile. Will post pics tomorrow if i have time.

Hoooray! Best of luck!

[Ray Gabriel]

Craig donated this specimen to the museum, and shortly after being placed into alchohol the alchohol turned pink, will post pics later

Ray

Hi Fenella,

Does the reddish discharge look anything like the pictures in this link: http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum...uid&highlight=


See the link above Stan, you might find the pictures interesting.

[Craig Mackay]

Interesting, do you think you'll be able to do anything to find out what it is?