Myths...

[Nicola Dolby]

Can I just add here that Theraphosid venom is neuro-toxic, not necrotic. The only family of spiders to my knowledge which produce necrotic venom are the Sicariidae family, which includes the genus Loxosceles and the genus Sicarius (there may be others). The tarantula venom is not flesh rotting. Further their venom, as far as I know, is not in itself a danger to life. all of the bad bite reports I have heard of have happened because either the victim had an underlying health problem or had an allergic reaction to the venom. From what I understand this is the main reason for eath from Lactrodectus bites as well, another spider with vastly overhyped venom (though it is still far more venemous to humans than a tarantula bite). Anyone can have a bad allergy, which is why even a bite from a garden spider can make some people very ill. There is insufficient study to my knowledge in this area to be able to test for an allergy, though that probably comes down to funding and not scientific dissinteredness. Hope this helps.

[Stanley A. Schultz]

They do bite? I've been at this for nearly 20 years, and still no bites. ...

Yah, but you've probably gone out of your way to avoid it. Marguerite and I shipped in tarantulas from various places in the USA and even the UK, and sold them in Calgary for many years. Perhaps half of them were cage bred babies, but the remainder were wild caught adults. And, over that span of time we probably had over 250+ kinds at one time or another. And, we intentionally handled even the most notorious ones just to see what they were like. Thus, not only were we involved in a situation that exposed us to potential bites from a truly remarkable assortment of kinds, but we engaged in practices that greatly increased the risk of being bit (sort of a high risk hobby). Because we did it and have reported our results, the rest of you needn't bother. (Sometimes a little voyeurism, in the broadest sense, is a good thing!)

The result is that both Marguerite and I were bitten a couple of dozen times each by probably almost that many distinct species. Marguerite finally died last year at age 89 of pneumonia, NOT A TARANTULA BITE! In fact, she liked to tell people about some of the bites she'd received, partly because the circumstances surrounding a few were actually funny, partly to illustrate that most tarantulas and their bites are pretty close to harmless. And, while I don't want to trivialize the "discomfort" and potential seriousness of some species' bites (e.g., genera Poecilotheria, Pterinochilus), the undeniable fact remains that not only do people not die from any tarantula bites, but they don't even suffer long lasting or permanent damage or harm.

Further, the cases reported of anyone suffering some infection secondary to a tarantula bite are so rare that they're front page news in the National Enquirer, but are never reported in JAMA! And that, I think, is about the most significant indicator one can point to, illustrating the relative unimportance of tarantula bites and subsequent infections!

Lastly, I see a persistent recurrence of mention of an allergic reaction, even anaphylactic shock, resulting from a tarantula's bite. The bare faced facts are that not only has this NEVER been reported by anyone with reference to tarantula bites, but if and when it does happen with any other spider, it's so rare that it IS likely to be reported in JAMA! (And, this is very likely going to appear shortly on my Myth, Misconceptions, Mistakes... page.)

I'm a pragmatist. I could be killed by a falling meteorite this afternoon, the world could end tomorrow, or the universe could implode next week. But, worrying about these things, or even spending a lot of effort being anything but trivially amused by the concepts is a waste of effort because there's no payback and I can't do anything about them anyway. And, philosophy is definitely not my forte. Thus, I don't put a lot of time and effort into sugar coating "could get infected," "could develop an allergy," or "could be sued." I could be killed by a falling meteorite this afternoon, the world could end tomorrow, or the universe could implode next week...

Thanks again for all your comments and concerns. In a way, this is a minor, though not trivial, sort of peer review process, and ultimately great for the hobby. Changes WILL be made. And, I'm loving it!

[david clarke]

Stanley

I respect your, obviously vast experience, in dealing with these wonderful creatures. I regularly refer to your book. Spider bites, I believe, are not legally required to be reported. So, the rare cases, that are reported are medically significant, in some form, infection or otherwise, as they have been reported to a medical facility.

As far as having an allergic reation, most, if not all, the bite reports I have read, including dry bites, have involved an allergic reaction to some degree. This is, at the very least, the redness surrounding the bite. The human body has an allergic reation to any foreign element it perceives to be a threat. Anaphylaxis is mearly an over allergic reaction. We all know that this is uncommon, but it is there. If you refer to some bite reports, indeed you will find symptoms matching those of anaphylaxis. I'm certainly not saying that it is anaphylaxis. It may just be the effect of the neuro toxins.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Anaphylaxis/Pages/Introduction.aspx

However, my main concern is, interest in the Tarantula hobby is snowballing and that when the un-thinkable does happen, and it will, we will have spent so much time arguing against the possible effects of a bite that the one event could tear the hobby apart. Especially when the experts have said, definatively, that it won't happen. No one wants to give the press the oportunity to say, "I told you so." Again this is my opinion only.

It is for these reasons that I also question the definate stance on the statements at the top of the thread, taking into account the target audience.

Question everything, assume nothing and anything is possible.

David

[Christian Elowsky]

David,

Localized swelling, pain, redness do not indicate "allergic reaction". The venoms of Theraphosids do no contain molecules large enough for the immune system to react to, unlike the proteins found on urticating setea. Basically, bites = no allergic response, "hairs" may = allergic response.

If you've read "allergic" in posts, it is hobbyist conjecture, not educated opinion nor statements from the peer reviewed literature. Stan worked as a research biologist for many years, beyond his decades of tarantula specific experience. In the United States, the only system I know well enough to comment on, both facts make him legally an "expert", even an MD would be considered less of an expert on the topic, and a less than 5 year hobbyist without a biology/biochemistry degree wouldn't even be considered at all. The system may be different in Europe, I do not know. This is what lead to my confusion of how the BTS could be liable for anything said on the site, I do not know the systems!

In any case, stating "Bites do not cause allergic reactions" and "Bites may occur", is true. And stating "Bites, like any injury to the skin, may lead to infections", is completely accurate. We do not need to discuss the range of bites from all 950+ species.

Oddly enough, I do recall a brilliant story shared by Andrew Smith regarding a Poecilotheria which DID jump off a tree, nail him in the thigh, and run off. So there maybe some truth to them jumping... I wonder if he has written that story down anywhere, I do not read the BTS publication nearly enough!

Christian

[Nicola Dolby]

First, what you have described Christian are not an allergic reaction, they are symptoms. Secondly an "allergic reaction" is an abnormal reaction to the introduction of an unfamiliar substance. Pain, swelling and nausea are symptoms of a Poecilotheria bite for example, along with the physical "twitching" caused by the neurotoxins. An allergic reaction to the venom would be a heart attack, or having severe breathing difficulties, or having to be hospitalized for illness inconsistant with the symptoms due from the venom concerned. I can name at least one member of the current BTS committe who had a serious allergic reaction to a Cyclosternum bite (though I'm not doing it in this post as I haven't had their permission). If you wish to discuss whether allergic reactions occur from theraphosid bites in the mean time get in touch with Ray Gabriel and ask him about P. pederseni bites. The reference in my last post to allergic reactions to garden spider bites was a factual reference to my own step-mother. Further Poecilotheria do jump, I have had a mature male P. rufilata jump from his sub-adult tank to a large Exo-Terra where I was placing the colony he was a member of some 4 or 5 years ago. The distance he jumped I measured at 2.5 feet ( 75 cm ).

[david clarke]

Christian

Alergy = Condition of the body reacting to something ie. Body's reaction = localised swelling, pain, redness etc. This can be the reaction to the puncture wound alone. Thus " Bites do not cause alergic reaction" is technically untrue. I do not refer to the word " allergy " in the bite reports but to the symptoms that indicate allergy.

It is not my intention to question anyones expertise, but to put forward my arguments in support of my personal opinion. However you do use the phrase " LEGALLY an expert " , which I do not question. However, no matter who it applies to, would make them " LEGALLY responsible " for any information they provide.

I agree that there is no need to discuss bites from all 950+ speces, as you said, but I also never suggested this as an option. This is something that we, in the hobby, provide ourselves through bite reports.

Again, I am questioning the use of such definative statements, when it is entirely possible that they are not correct. As I said, this is my personal opinion, which, at this point, will not change. However, it is a grey area, within the hobby, that I have taken a keen interest in. I will keep searching and sifting through what I can find, and indeed, share anything of interest. I enjoy the hobby and, at no stage, would I like to see it jepordised.

It's clear we have our own thoughts on the matter. I do truly enjoy a good rant though, especially when it's intercontinental. No better way to get to know people.

David

[Christian Elowsky]

I did not imply true spiders could not cause the immune response. I hope Ray takes a moment, and finds this thread and chimes in as do any others. Currently, the literature does not support "allergic" reactions to tarantulas. Obviously if this is incorrect, the scientific community needs to wake up and get publishing.

I absolutely need to know the facts if I am going to ever chime in when some group of fools tries to ban tarantulas.

[Nicola Dolby]

The way I see it Christian is that tarantulas are not dangerous. They are different and exotic pets, that's what not only attracts us to them but can also attract stories of the "man eating spiders" and "giant spiders ran off with my baby" variety. Whilst some see it as cool to keep such beautiful animals as they are exotic, for the kudos as it were, this can be self defeating. An innocent statement such as "Hey, look at this big, scary spider I've got" can easily illicit the reply "Why are you bringing that big, scary spider near me!" and the next thing you know the authorities are banging on the door. This is how pets get banned. Then again you already know this, as Vice Chairman of the ATS you've probably had to deal with dozens of members getting in touch because their neighbours have reported them for having "dangerous" tarantulas. Myself I try not to tell anyone I've got them, saves on the hassle. If anyone says "Do they bite" I say "yes, but its no worse than a bee sting". Though as has been mentioned, bite reports do help, otherwise I doubt that we would know half about tarantula venom as we do. But if someone comes up to you and tries to ban tarantulas in your area, and still isn't convinced by the above, hit them with this:

1. Grammostola rosea venom has properties which can fight in the battle against multiple sclerosis, apparently scientific trials are going on now in the US over the issue.

2. Haplopelma schmidti venom is being synthesised and tested in China as a new super-fertilizer which is apparently non-destructive to the environment

3. Tarantula venom (and you'll have to research this, I'm trying to remember off the top of my head) is also being tested as a possible aid to alleviate some heart conditions.


If that doesn't convince them then go off topic and remind them that in Chile (again apparently) studies are being conducted to see if peptides in black widow venom can be synthesised as a suitable alternative to Viagra!!!


That'll confuse them!

[Stanley A. Schultz]

... If that doesn't convince them then go off topic and remind them that in Chile (again apparently) studies are being conducted to see if peptides in black widow venom can be synthesised as a suitable alternative to Viagra!!! ...

Oh, God delivery me! I can see the scandal sheets now! But, we shall not devolve into that sort of thing here, shall we?

[david clarke]

Very, very good points Nicola.

[Mike_Strick]

Fascinating thread!

Firstly, thank you to Stanley for tackling the myths that we've probably all encountered. If we can all agree on the wording for a 'myth-busting' document on tarantulas, it would be valuable to search engine-optimise it and try and get it plenty of visibility on the web.

On the subject of infections, has there been a study involving swabs taken from tarantula fangs? I've always had the impression that they are very clean animals, grooming themselves regularly and that their fangs are particularly well maintained. It would be interesting to know if there were actually a significant level of microbes etc present. I would imagine that the danger of infection from such incidentally transferred microbes would be very similar in bee and wasp stings, but I've never seen the matter mentioned - the focus is always on the direct effects of the venom.

[Ray Gabriel]

Mornin

My first bite caused reddening and itchyness around almost every joint in my body, I went to the local hospital, who told me it was a spider bite and put me on a course of Steroids and anti histamines...................I was told by the medical staff i was probably alergic to the spiders venom.............this spider was Steatoda grossa a common spider in the south of the UK, with the exception of the Poke bite all other bites have been remedied by taking a couple of over the counter anti histamines imediatly after the bite, so no further problems.

I am not a medic anyone here a medic? so I trust what i have been told

When you go to a hospital (can only speak for the UK) your injury is recorded on file which is why they can give national stats for X injury or x accident.

But infection from spider bites has never been proven and any referance to flesh eating bacterium is BLOCKS

[david clarke]

Hi all

I am a pre-hospital rescue medic and I base my opinion on theoretical knowledge and the way in which I would diagnose the symptoms. Firstly I apologise If my posts are very matter of fact, as I said, this is my interpretation of the symptoms that I have read. Medicine is, by no means, definative, and educated trial and error is regularly used. I am by no means a Toxicologist, Chemist or otherwise.

My thoughts on infection

My main concerns with infection relate to the wound created by a bite. This wound, as with any wound, creates a gateway for micro-organisms into the body. Thus infection is possible. I am not saying that the spider carries these organisms, but there is a possibility. However, the spider will carry the blame, until proven otherwse. To that end, proper care of the wound must be advised and taken. That is not to say that infection is still not possible even when proper treatment is carried out. I do not refer to flesh eating bacteria in my posts and, as Nicola pointed out, does not apply to Tarantulas.

My thoughts on allergy

In most, if not all, bite reports, I have read, there are symptoms indicating some degree of allergic reation. We tend to see allergic reation as bad and extreme. This is not the case. It is simply a condition of the body reacting to something. The body then releases histamine, in rare cases this may be extreme, resulting in what is called anaphylaxis. Histamine bonds to receptors, in the body, causing symtoms such as swelling, fluid leakage from tissue, itchiness, nausea and others. Treatment via anti-histamine prevents the bonding and reduces the symtoms and any problems they cause. The steriod treatment is, most likely, via the drug dexamethasone. This is an anti-inflammatory to reduce swelling and alleviate problems it may cause to the airways or circulation.

I am not saying that these reactions, and conditions, will be the case in every bite but they are most certainly possible, as the medical treatments suggest. Also, reactions are individual and cannot be generalised. This is my reason for questioning such " definative " statements. It is also an area that obviously needs a lot more research so that we, in the hobby, can confidently fight our corner when, as Christian says, " when some group of fools tries to ban Tarantulas. "

David

[david clarke]

Sorry, I didn't include one of my final points. Suffering any infection or allergic reaction could lead to long term effects, depending on the severity or locations affected.

[Christian Elowsky]

On the subject of infections, has there been a study involving swabs taken from tarantula fangs?

McCoy, R. Clapper, D. 1979. The oral flora of the south Texas tarantula, Dugesiella anax (Araneae: Theraphosidae). Journal of Medical Entomology. Volume 16, Number 5, pp. 450-451.

Abstract:
At least 6 genera of bacteria were isolated and identified from the oral cavity of tarantulas. Species identified included Bacillus subtilis, B. cereus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, P. fluorescens, P. cepacia, P. spp., Aeromonas hydrophila, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Micrococcus varians, M. mucilaginosus, and Staphylococcus aureus. Some coryneforms and some members of the family Enterobacteriaceae were also isolated.

And it's a crap paper, at an entire 2 pages... So no. As for localized swelling, lysis can cause swelling thus redness without an allergic reaction. I really have no further interest in defining "allergic" though. I suspect some of the confusion is coming from several different variations on "English" as this is an international discussion board. Furthermore, medical doctors are not thinking doctors in any language, thus until something appears in any language in a peer reviewed journal, I personally dismiss everything any doctor says about tarantula bites.

Also, as a hobby, we should be careful speaking of "spiders" versus "tarantulas", as the venom constituents are extremely different.

I am very glad to see so much discussion on this topic, which I'm quite sure Stan did not mean to stir up! Finally as to the myth-busting, having links to online publications would be extremely beneficial. I'm quite sure there are websites stating bears make wonderful pets too, but without a whole lot of data...

Christian