a blue P.subfusca????

[Chris Sainsbury]

i will never mix the 2 forms since , if there can be 2 forms of other speices why not subfusca there markins are clearly not the same ??

Yes that would be almost as bad as cross breeding P. rufilata with P. subfusca wouldn't it!!!!

[Simon Goldsborough]

Now then this offer still stands, if someone is willing to send a female and male of BOTH the highland and lowland forms, if they are a new species they will be named after the person who sends them. Cant say fairer than that can we?



Ray

you ask for a female lowland I lent you a juv female i bought from Paul Towler at the 2007 BTS show and gave it straight to you for you to look at that i have not herd anything about she should be adult by now since all her sisters are now 7+inch i dont want her breeding with a highland male she was only on loan for you to compare the 2 forms ?? , i can clearly see in the picture there not the same form maybe lowland aint the right name call it light form if it stops all this bickering and where is the pictuers of these 2 forms from the same egg sac maybe he has mixed bloodline male lowland x highland since there is a couple of people who have crossed the 2 forms so there is not going to be 2 forms for long i will never mix the 2 forms since , if there can be 2 forms of other speices why not subfusca there markins are clearly not the same ??

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

Hi,

From the 2 pictures, you can tell nothing the black of one specimen will make the carapace appear slimmer. so what is the natural range of variation for clypeus width and carapace length/width?

before anyone can start saying they are different the range of variation within the species must be known.

OK.

for pokes it is leg banding, for most specimens all they need are dried out and you get the banding, subfusca has a couple of yellow spots not really much you can say there is there, the underside is black.

So the keys are based on coloration, OK.

Yes a field study would be good, but for these so called lowland forms where is the collection site? and that is the important bit

Yes, crucial point ! Let's imagine we have here a new species (which, I do admit very easily, is highly unlikely). I do not think one second that Pr Smith could describe it just from captive born specimens from unknown breeders

NO ONE ANYWHERE has sent specimens (..). you do realise that Andy needs males and females from BOTH forms and they will end up in alchohol?

I hope Pr Smith will have the ability to examine so called lowland specimens, in case he could not until now. And in case he could not, it's a pity.With several breedings in UK it should be possible, I am sure people will help. If needed you can send me an email (did you get mine ?)

I stop here annoying you.
Best regards and good night !

Alex

[WayneYasinski]

wow, i never intentionally try to cause dissension when i post but my posts seem to bring that out in people lol...honestly, my biggest concern is that we are continually bombarded by new pet trade species and no-one seems to question why these were never available before..especially with nothing more to back them up then hype...

i try when ever possible to seek the wisdom of those before me and of those who just know better...I'm not saying what they say is gospel but there is truth in their conclusions...nowadays with the Internet, everyone thinks of themselves as an expert and talking with a couple of dealers here in the states, belive themselves to be so. so its always refreshing to hear what you all have to say..

from breeders i have talked to and from what people in the hobby i respect say... there's not much if any, differentiating character ques that solidify or support 2 separate species. besides the pics of lighter and darker subfuscas. i know many conclude so because of buying into the hype and spending the money for the different species but honestly, who wants to admit to getting duped.. so they have to argue for it, otherwise they wasted their money and look kinda foolish.

i was looking for proof for the supposed color forms of P.subfusca and the only proof i have been given is of that, supporting only one form exists..so in that, i thank you..i guess its always easy for a newbie like me to admit being wrong with my conclusions... i only wish those that we respect are able to do so as well....

thanks ray i seem to think i bug you way to much, as well as eric and you guys over here....im just glad, i get a researched answer and not the regurgitated babel someone heard a so called expert say lol.....soo i guess i wont bring up pamphobeteus sp' any time soon.......hahaha
wayne

[Phil Rea]

With all these wannabe varieties and forms, when a real one does come out no one will be interested and it will vanish.

Ray

Or it will be pillaged from its habitat.

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi,
My question is : was Andy Smith given any specimens of this so-called LLform ?

No not yet, with all the people plugging these interestingly NO ONE will supply Andt the specimens he needs Male and female of both lowland AND highalnd forms...wonder what they are scared of??????

2 points :

- I spoke about carapace shape.What about this ? in particular clypeus width.

From the 2 pictures, you can tell nothing the black of one specimen will make the carapace appear slimmer. so what is the natural range of variation for clypeus width and carapace length/width?

before anyone can start saying they are different the range of variation within the species must be known.

- What are the keys to distinguish Pokies from each others ? When I look at the diagnosis for P. tigrinawesseli (BTS Vol 21, n°3, pp86-87), it is a question of colors. But I repeat, I am no taxonomist, so take it as a remark and not an argument.

for pokes it is leg banding, for most specimens all they need are dried out and you get the banding, subfusca has a couple of yellow spots not really much you can say there is there, the underside is black.

OK, no problem, I also cannot see often 2 P. subfusca that look exactly the same.

neither have I i have seen almost totally black ones, and ones that looked more like P. regalis, ...................they are still the same species

I agree to say it would be very useful to have a field study in Sri Lanka. It is not impossible that, though from the same species, we discover a local population with it's own characteristics, is it ?

Yes a field study would be good, but for these so called lowland forms where is the collection site? and that is the important bit. Most of the P. subfusca from around Nuwary Elia (not spelt properly) are dark with a lesser amount being light,,they are still the same species, they still come from the same eggsac.

See my first comment. I have some difficulty to realize that no one (in particular from UK) could send any specimens of this so-called LF, they are numerous !

NO ONE ANYWHERE has sent specimens

In case Pr Smith did not have any specimens, I am ready to send my single (mated) female, but the goal is absolutely not to have one's name for an hypothetic new species.

you do realise that Andy needs males and females from BOTH forms and they will end up in alchohol?

Bear in mind I retained your words (as those of Soren and other well qualified people), so I know it is highly unlikely that it be a new species. But this do not prevent from discussing about this (not these wonderful species.

True, but since all eyes are turned on Poecilotheria, we have had the RED one, remeber that scam with red colouring?

The so called P. ornata "blau" which turned out to be more like the type than most of the pet trade material and not anything different. People should try to understand about taxonomic features, some times the feature is the fact that it is there not its size,

And we now have these "lowland" subfuscas which only appeared as "lowland" subfuscas after a post by i think Soren, which as i have stated before pointed out they were the largest, and tthen people started asking if anyone had the "lowland" form and then "BANG" they suddenly appeared.

Now go on tell me it was just good timing, the person who first advertised them didnt have them a couple of weeks earlier when he posted up his price list then AFTER that comment and people asking for them there they were "lowland form". There is a thread on the T store with links to the dates etc???

But as i said earlier some people regard me as full of S*** on this subject they are also the ones who spent alot of money buying them, you decide.

With all these wannabe varieties and forms, when a real one does come out no one will be interested and it will vanish.

Ray

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

Hi,

Just Spoke to Andy Smith, He ahs been told about this lowland form, and when he asked for deads (even saying if it was a new species it would be named after them,) they refused to send any specimen.

My question is : was Andy Smith given any specimens of this so-called LLform ?

take Bens pictures and take away all the colour so they are both a purple brown (like most alchohol specimens are) with nothing which shows very much of anything. (as the legs are all black on the underside well mostly).

How would you tell them apart?

That is the question, without colour how would you tell them apart?, is there enough differances which fall outside the normal range of variation within the species (taxonomically).

2 points :

- I spoke about carapace shape.What about this ? in particular clypeus width.
- What are the keys to distinguish Pokies from each others ? When I look at the diagnosis for P. tigrinawesseli (BTS Vol 21, n°3, pp86-87), it is a question of colors. But I repeat, I am no taxonomist, so take it as a remark and not an argument.

There have been light and dark forms in the hobby ever since they first came in, that is no secret, both comming from the same eggsac

OK, no problem, I also cannot see often 2 P. subfusca that look exactly the same.

So here is one for all you supporters for a "lowland" form as no one knows where these were collected (and no one will tell so this species can be studied in the wild)

I agree to say it would be very useful to have a field study in Sri Lanka. It is not impossible that, though from the same species, we discover a local population with it's own characteristics, is it ?

The gauntlet is down, if this is the new species as some people (looking for something new?) are saying, supply the specimens, and its named after you.

See my first comment. I have some difficulty to realize that no one (in particular from UK) could send any specimens of this so-called LF, they are numerous ! In case Pr Smith did not have any specimens, I am ready to send my single (mated) female, but the goal is absolutely not to have one's name for an hypothetic new species.
Bear in mind I retained your words (as those of Soren and other well qualified people), so I know it is highly unlikely that it be a new species. But this do not prevent from discussing about this (not these wonderful species.

Best regards,
Alex

[Taki Tsonis]

As far as 'blueish' goes, how much of that do you think is down to pics of T's?
Here's 2 pics of my Singapore blue, the 1st one is with natural light (purple), and the second one is the very same spider minutes apart but with direct flash!





oh and btw, what a stunning T a P subfusca is!!

[Eric Reynolds]

Hi Steevens,

They all are females of course....
Do you think that french breeder are so bad to compares with different sex ????

Take it easy my friend! You never said anything about the sex of the spiders, so how was I to know what was being compared?

Though looking at the patella, I'm still not convinced

Take care,

Eric

[Steevens DROGUET]

What is the sex of that "highland" form in the photos, a male? And the "lowland" a female?

The females I have from Jacobi's "highland" stock look exactly like the spider in those "lowland" pics.

They all are females of course....
Do you think that french breeder are so bad to compares with different sex ????

[Ray Gabriel]

Nice pics, i will look through my pics and see what i have.

Just Spoke to Andy Smith, He ahs been told about this lowland form, and when he asked for deads (even saying if it was a new species it would be named after them,) they refused to send any specimen.

Now then this offer still stands, if someone is willing to send a female and male of BOTH the highland and lowland forms, if they are a new species they will be named after the person who sends them. Cant say fairer than that can we?

Again he reiterated that of the 100s of specimens examined there is nothing taxonomically which can be said is a different species, take Bens pictures and take away all the colour so they are both a purple brown (like most alchohol specimens are) with nothing which shows very much of anything. (as the legs are all black on the underside well mostly).

How would you tell them apart?

That is the question, without colour how would you tell them apart?, is there enough differances which fall outside the normal range of variation within the species (taxonomically).

There have been light and dark forms in the hobby ever since they first came in, that is no secret, both comming from the same eggsac.

So here is one for all you supporters for a "lowland" form as no one knows where these were collected (and no one will tell so this species can be studied in the wild) is it possible, is it possible that the light form is adapting to captivity better than the darker form therefore becomming easier to breed?

Is it possible that this lowland form that people are asking for is nothing more than a captive adaptation?

If Mice (vertibrates) in a cold enviroment can have longer thicker coats in one generation then go back to being normal the next generation is it not possible that an invert cold do the same?????

The gauntlet is down, if this is the new species as some people (looking for something new?) are saying, supply the specimens, and its named after you.

Ray

[Eric Reynolds]

What is the sex of that "highland" form in the photos, a male? And the "lowland" a female?

The females I have from Jacobi's "highland" stock look exactly like the spider in those "lowland" pics.

its interesting that the people working taxonomically with Poecilotheria and the bigggest breeders, Thomas Froik, Soren, Henrik, arent claiming there are 2 forms??? But when they say there are 2 color forms from the same eggsac they are not believed????

Very good point Ray.

Eric

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

Cheers Steevens for Ben's photos.
Ray, I emailed you.

Best regards,
Alex

[Steevens DROGUET]

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Steevens,

I cannot see any P. subfusca on that link??

Alex,

If it is proven to me that there are 2 forms then Ok I will believe there are 2 forms. But no one knows where this "lowland" form comes from in the first place, and the people who are suppsoed to know wont tell anyone (i wonder why?), as part of the Pokie book Andy Smith has examined hundreds of Poecilotheria specimens and he has never said anything about two forms. Maybe someone with deads of these "forms" can send them to me so i can ask Andy to look at them?????

its interesting that the people working taxonomically with Poecilotheria and the bigggest breeders, Thomas Froik, Soren, Henrik, arent claiming there are 2 forms??? But when they say there are 2 color forms from the same eggsac they are not believed????

For years P. subfusca was very hard to obtain and even then the price of spiderlings was only £20, not the stupidly inflated prices that some people charge nowadays, it was also very hard to breed as amles and females were out of cliamtic sinc with each other (and unrelated to each other), mainly because very few people would buy more than one spiderling at a time. either because of cash or avaliability (more the later).

Recently though (even with the high prices) people have been buying spiderlings in small groups where the spiderlings are reared to gether and bred together and lo and behold people are having more succsess at breeding them.

J M Verdez, without doupt the worlds best theraphosid breeder, has no problems breeding his, and his are not any known "variety " or "form". What are his comments on this?

So i ask the people who have these "forms" to come up with the proof, if they have something distinct then post up some solid evidance, and get some deads to me and ill ask Andy to look at them, (believe me if there is something different he will want it for the book).

Ray