Myths...

[Christian Elowsky]

Oops, I have another link to add regarding the medical field and tarantula bites:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zieryTHpK7QC&pg=PA325&lpg=PA325&dq=oral+flora+tarantula&source=bl&ots=V2gMaqb7Ov&sig=nnKe1Dh1b0NTGRrY6ClDXMcDwFo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d1K6T_iHGsme2wXTkZy_CQ&ved=0CGsQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=oral%20flora%20tarantula&f=false

If that works, you can view a few pages from a Medical Entomology text. It is a bit dated, but the only reference I can see to tarantula bites is from Bearg, 1922!


Good stuff. Although this text obviously treats true spiders as far more important the tarantula bites (which is true), it completely misses the Old World species which tend to have far more pain potential.

Christian

[Peter Lacey]

This has been a great read, and good to see healthy debate.
I think a prime example of what David Clarke suggests, from subsidiary infection, and possibly where Rick West gets his point from is this rare case involving a Centipede from Turkey, not known for its harmful venom:
A Case of Mortal Necrotizing Fasciitis of the Trunk Resulting From a Centipede (Scolopendra moritans) Bite

http://www.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-emergency-medicine/volume-2-number-2/a-case-of-mortal-necrotizing-fasciitis-of-the-trunk-resulting-from-a-centipede-scolopendra-moritans-bite.html

My memory of the Andrew Smith story recalls Stromatopelma calceatum as the tarantula that "fell" from the tree, after a soldier had climbed a palm tree, full of bravado, but without his tub to capture. A bite to himself resulted in a free flying lesson for the tarantula which landed firmly on the kneck of the "footie" accomplice resulting in a rather nasty bite. I believe the full story was given in a recent BTS journal, far from lands article.


It seems to me there are plenty of reputable reports of bites, but as these are not conducted under scientific research it becomes hard to determine the issues with any credibility. None the less, the painful bites are reported consisting of acute localised pain, muscle cramps, breathing difficulties, heart palpitations, nausea and joint pains. A number of people Ive talked to experience numbness or infrequent join pains years after a bite. Whilst this might be in the minority, I think its worth mentioning, rather than discarding.


Soren Rafn gives his opinion on the above species:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/26/1884095/Stromatopelma.pdf

"a bite cannot be a nasty affair. A fully-grown female of the species Stromatopelma calceatum griseipes bit a certain lieutenant Thorsten Fink. He suffered convulsion-like pains and strong swellings around the biting area. The pain and the swellings lasted for three painful days."


It might also be worth following up on another report he mentions concerning S. calceatum:
Dr. M.H. Finlayson tested the effects of its poison on mice and proved that Latrodectus (black widow) antidote worked against the symptoms, and that untreated bites were fatal. Besides, he had witnessed two cases where people had been bitten by this spider, and the symptoms were as follows: A constant, burning pain around the bite itself. After a period of approximately two hours, the patient began vomiting constantly, and slipped into a clear state of shock; he became pale, collapsed and was incapable of walking around erect.


Perhaps the most interesting read Ive come across is the report in Toxicon:
Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines

http://www.thegreenscorpion.com.au/documents/toxicon%20paper%20on%20australian%20theraphosids.pdf

"Local pain was the commonest effect, with severe pain in four of seven cases where severity of pain was recorded."


Its easy to argue against the extreme, but I believe its inaccurate to suggest a bite isn't painful when it clearly can be. Those familiar with TobC/TarantulaGuy and his P. ornata bite video on YouTube can clearly see the affects.


As a hobbyist sharing information on the internet Ive personally found it a strange stance that, in a book many refer to as the Tarantula Bible, its suggested tarantula bites don't hurt. And yet some folks Ive talked to are quite adamant that the pain is far more than a bee sting, including one large chap that remained for three days in hospital to monitor him after a bite from a juvenile P. murinus. To his embarrassment he relays this episode despite being the person many local keepers call upon when they have aggressive reptiles that require moving, including crocs!


As for Poecilotheria, I thought they only jumped when they were referred to as parachute spiders

[Nicola Dolby]

I know what you are saying Peter, and I have never had a wet bite myself so I'm only really talking from what I've read and been told. The concern is about a tarantula bite. Look at the fangs! Anyone who says "those going in won't hurt" is stupid (or numb)! And the venom is neurotixic, hence the muscle cramps, sometimes spasms, which also hurt. Also the dizzines, nausea (possibly brought on by the other symptoms), and gastric problems again sometimes. But what distinguishes one theraphosid bite on a human from another except severity of symptoms. And different people have a different response to the same venom from the same species. However if someone is bitten by a tarantula are they in trouble, are they in danger? Not really, except in rare circumstances. If we're bitten we just hit the Paracetamol and anti-hystamines and when we're over the adrenaline rush go and see about getting the spider back into its enclosure - gingerly. Sometimes there are problems, which from what I've read usually involve doctor administered steroids and better pain killers, but no one dies from a tarantula bite. The direction this is all leading in is we have a lack of research into the subject and I personally would love it if someone here with a medical background could get a research grant to get the ball rolling. I haven't a clue how much it would cost but even a study into one species would be invaluable.

[david clarke]

Hi all

Apologies for not being on for a few days but have been busy at work. I'm really enjoying this thread and am looking forward to reading the links that have been posted.

I have not read any of the reports that have been posted and my opinion is based purely on the medical side of the argument. I've been reading bite reports and referring to the signs, symptoms and treatments. In my role as a rescue medic I have dealt with allergic reactions and occassionaly the extreme end of the scale. I have identified a couple of NHS links that I will take the time to post tomorrow. My phone won't let me do it now. It will show why I have these views and my opinion on the statements posted. I would, as do you, like to see more published medical research in this area.

David

[david clarke]

Ok

Let's take the spider out of the equation and simplify it to the way I think. We all have a body and it's functions are controlled by the big wobbly bit on the end of your neck. Your body has it's own defense mechanism, the immune system. Your immune system will react to anything It sees as a threat, whether harmful or harmless. It does this by producing histamine and fireing infection fighting white blood cells at it. The local area becomes red, due to the increased blood flow to deliver the white cells. The local area becomes inflamed to slow down the passage of the suspected threat. The action of the histamine produces other symptoms consistant with bite reports of Tarantulas and indeed many other animals. THIS IS FACT.

My point being that you cannot discount these facts. As, has already been stated by Nichola and myself, the extent to which your body deals with this is totally individual, as the bite reports show. As for discussing " Allergic Reation, " and it's definition, I see that as irrelevant now. Whether or not you know the true definition, are from a different country, race, colour or creed your body still reacts, FACT. I do refer to the " Tarantula Keepers Bible " for information specific to Tarantulas however, I refer NHS publications and my " Other Bibles " when dealing with the human body. I don't understand what is meant by " medical doctors are not thinking doctors in any language. " I can only assume by this you mean a General Practioner? If this is the case, then I would agree. Although, I would still present any medical problem to GP before a non medical doctor. I think that we should accept the facts contained in the bite reports that we provide for information, and take them more seriously when considering statements to be published. They are, what I would consider, recent evidence. As far as infection, we all accept, in everyday life, that any open wound can become infected. Why not the wound left by a Tarantula bite? I don't think I've read anywhere that the fangs or venom have anti-septic properties. This, as has been the case from the start, is why I also disagree with the statement at the top of the thread.

I have incuded some NHS links below. They are on medication but will should explain. This type of information is what I refer to for my everyday job.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Antihistamines/Pages/Introduction.aspx

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Antihistamines/Pages/How-does-it-work.aspx

http://www.nhs.uk/medicine-guides/pages/MedicineOverview.aspx?condition=Steroid%20responsive%20conditions&medicine=dexamethasone

It appears that this thread could continue for some time, similar to a handle, don't handle debate. It would be nice to find some sort of conclusion, at some stage, rather than a continuous, open ended, discussion.

Thanks
David

[paul charlton]

i am on antihistamines due tohaving alergys to pigeons called pigeon lung and never worked at the time ive been in hospital 4 times with it the longist 5 month. i had the stronger type of antihistamines while in hospital due to spraying deep heat on my harm they worked fast lucky the was doctor on ward rounds lol so i think more studies would be a good idea cause they would not know what type to give for the bite

[Christian Elowsky]

Your immune system will react to anything It sees as a threat, whether harmful or harmless. It does this by producing histamine and fireing infection fighting white blood cells at it. The local area becomes red, due to the increased blood flow to deliver the white cells. The local area becomes inflamed to slow down the passage of the suspected threat. The action of the histamine produces other symptoms consistant with bite reports of Tarantulas and indeed many other animals. THIS IS FACT.

The assumption you make is that the immune system detects tarantula venom or its constituents. There is no reason to discuss "allergic reaction" until there is a single piece of evidence supporting the venom being detected. I'm not being snotty, it's simple cause and effect. A breach in the epidermis of any sort can illicit swelling, so that does not support an immune reaction. Pain does not support an immune reaction alone. Until biochemist, immunologist, molecular biologist, histologist or similar professional publishes a peer reviewed article demonstrating an interaction between the human immune system and tarantula venom, this is a dead conversation.

I mean by all means feel free to share everything you know about allergies, as there is some support for allergies and allergic reactions from urticating setea. This is a very important topic, no questioning that.

Christian

[david clarke]

I agree Christian, I think we've probably taken this as far as it can go, pending some sort of specific research. However, in the mean time, I would think it acceptable, in my opinion, to afford some credibility to the reports supplied, by people in our hobby, and indeed society members, regardless of their scientific stature.

David

[Grant Brown]

Can I just chuck in about the 'natural is best' myth?

Again, I can see the points you make, but my understanding of those advocating natural enclosures (not natural conditions per se as in replicating predation - also, this includes myself) do so to get away from those shoe box containers with a thin layer of vermiculite which is supposed to house an 8" Asian burrowing nightmare.

Simply adding some woodlice and springtails to an enclosure brings benefits and is 'more natural'. You don't need to go so far as to replicate seasonal flooding or parasitoid wasps to make a natural enclosure...

It just seems to me there's a bit of a logical leap in that article: it's almost implying that excessively artifical enclosures are better than natural set ups because in nature the mortality rate is 99% (because of x,y,z, factors). You can have a natural style set up that replicates natural temperature and climate cylces without having 99% mortality.

The flip side of the coin about organisms surviving despite natural conditions can just as easily be applied to organisms surviving despite our central heating and low humity (or high, if they are more arid species). I suppose on some level you could also argue that the lack of predation in captive populations is als damaging because weaker individuals get to mate and as a whole the population suffers declines in fitness...I doubt anyone wants to replicate predation however on their pets!

I think a good myth to address would be the one about how tarantulas dont need a lot of space because they dont move much. It's one of those circular arguments- "you don't give them space to move, so they don't move much, ergo they don't need space".

It's not even just the movement - a larger space gives more choice for potential hide/burrow sites, which is something they would encounter in nature. I've tried large enclosures multiple times with the same spiders and they are more active (without observable signs of stress - OK, I can't rule out they are not suffering chronic apprehension leading to internal hemorrhaging or something but it seems unlikely! Hehehe). I usually keep my specimens in larger than normal containers and things progress just fine. There seems to be some myth about them not being able to find food which is also nonsense, as is the notion that they are scared in large spaces.

[Stanley A. Schultz]

Can I just chuck in about the 'natural is best' myth? ...

It just seems to me there's a bit of a logical leap in that article: it's almost implying that excessively artifical enclosures are better than natural set ups because in nature the mortality rate is 99% (because of x,y,z, factors). You can have a natural style set up that replicates natural temperature and climate cylces without having 99% mortality.

The flip side of the coin about organisms surviving despite natural conditions can just as easily be applied to organisms surviving despite our central heating and low humity (or high, if they are more arid species). I suppose on some level you could also argue that the lack of predation in captive populations is als damaging because weaker individuals get to mate and as a whole the population suffers declines in fitness...I doubt anyone wants to replicate predation however on their pets! ...

A truly excellent response! Many thanks!

In a way I am a prisoner of my own success (if I may dwell on a small egocentric diversion here). I started out keeping desert tarantulas (Aphonopelma sp., probably hentzi) in dry cages, and had much better success than any I tried with the damp, "natural and organic" cage. And, in fact I had what could arguably be called phenomenal success with almost all other species. Thus, after well over 40 years of keeping tarantulas I am a bit entrenched in my ways, although I've been loosening up a bit as time progresses.

My initial concern is with the novice, the "newbie." If you're ever going to have a lot of trouble with a tarantula, it's going to be with your first one, when it's most important that you are successful, but least likely. So, I have taken a very conservative stance when making care and husbandry recommendations. The last things I want to do are:

1. Scare them off by making tarantula care seem like some black art, or rocket science.

2. Sabotage someone's first tarantula. (You'll notice that the only tarantula for which I have written a specific care sheet is the ubiquitous G. rosea - Chilean rose tarantula, in spite of the fact that I know how to care for a few others. That's because so many people were having so much trouble with them. I sought to SOLVE the problem rather than exacerbate it.)

And, I urge the enthusiast, especially the novice to follow my, perhaps egocentric, tunnel vision instructions because I know from decades of experience, as well as selling literally thousands of tarantulas to rank newbies, that my system works virtually 100% of the time, a claim that I'd be very hesitant to make with any other care system.

But, you are correct. Many other people have had good success keeping tarantulas differently. Witness Sam Marshall's book, the number of people who successfully keep their tarantula's in more natural cages, and even those who keep selected species in semi-communal situations.

And, I've gradually altered my stance to urging novices to use my system at first, then if they choose, try the other methods after they've gained some experience. And, if you read through TKG3, you'll see that change in tact expressed there, even though it may not be stressed very much.

I note with some embarrassment that I didn't include that last strategy in the Natural is Better page. I shall do so as soon as I can get around to it. Promise.

... I think a good myth to address would be the one about how tarantulas dont need a lot of space because they dont move much. It's one of those circular arguments- "you don't give them space to move, so they don't move much, ergo they don't need space". ...

It's a really good example of the classic, circular argument. Recently in a department store I was told that they no longer carried a product I wanted.

"Why was that?"
"Well, we didn't sell enough."
"But if you don't stock them, you won't sell any!"
[Dumb look and a shrug!]

Do you know Wayne Gretzky? He's been quoted as saying, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Smart man! Also, a phenomenal hockey player! Great philosophy!

I'll put it on my list, but don't hold your breath. Each one of those pages takes a month or more (The Humidity page took almost a year to the day!); the short, easy ones seem to be the ones I mess up most often; and there are already 5 or 6 others in the queue.

And, thanks again for your critique! You're the man!