a blue P.subfusca????

[WayneYasinski]

i thought this would be a better way, then emailing all of you personally lol...i guess this has come up in some American forums and was wondering if this has been witnessed over here...i know of 2 distinctive forms of P.subfusca, the highland and the debatable lowland(which some might think is just a color morph, that gets alittle bigger than the highland)..my question is that, some pics are being posted of a blueish morph that is claimed to be a highland form...is there any data to support the claimed forms and is there a new highland subfusca we dont know about???

thanks for your help wayne....

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Wayne,

Sorry for late reply,

Not sure what you mean by "Blue" subfusca, there was a time some Germans were trying to sell P.ornata (blau), but i think that was jsut trying to cash in on the "blue" craze.

P. subfusca has (in my eyes) a purple hue on the upper femurs and carapace when freshlay moulted.

As for these 2 "varieties" of subfusca, well i have already been described as "full of S***" when it comes to this, so i will leave the comments to other people

have a read of what Thomas says in this thread

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=11411

Remember none of these "lowland forms" were ever around untill AFTER it was pointed out that a specimen from near Matale was the largest P. subfusca (maybe even the largest Poecilotheria at the time), then EVERYBODY apart from the people who knew better had them for sale.

A bit like many of the Grammastola species, as soon as people were crying out for them and willing to pay high prices "POOF" as if by magic they sudenly appeared.

Hope this helps

Ray

[WayneYasinski]

thanks that helps greatly, i was hoping you'd chime in....the blue craze is insane over here at the moment, due to the M.balfouri's lol...350-600 for slings ugh!!!!!!
wayne

[Eric Reynolds]

Hi Wayne,

some pics are being posted of a blueish morph that is claimed to be a highland form...is there any data to support the claimed forms and is there a new highland subfusca we dont know about???

Just curious, where did someone discuss or post pictures claiming to have a "blueish morph"? Just wondering where you getting this from?

Eric

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

As for these 2 "varieties" of subfusca, well i have already been described as "full of S***" when it comes to this, so i will leave the comments to other people

have a read of what Thomas says in this thread

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/i...howtopic=11411

Remember none of these "lowland forms" were ever around untill AFTER it was pointed out that a specimen from near Matale was the largest P. subfusca (maybe even the largest Poecilotheria at the time), then EVERYBODY apart from the people who knew better had them for sale.

A bit like many of the Grammastola species, as soon as people were crying out for them and willing to pay high prices "POOF" as if by magic they sudenly appeared.

Hope this helps

Ray

Hi Ray,

Thank you for your point of view.
Some (reliable) people have tried to "cross" these 2 so-called forms, and did never succeed. Do you have more informations about that ?

Cheers,
Alex

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Ray,

Thank you for your point of view.
Some (reliable) people have tried to "cross" these 2 so-called forms, and did never succeed. Do you have more informations about that ?

Cheers,
Alex

Hi Alex,

Never heard of that !

Who are these "reliable" people?

I wouldnt go as far as saying P. regalis was a dead cert to breed, and look how many i have turned out, just because they failed to breed two "forms" does not mean to say that it is beacuse its 2 forms that they never had a good eggsac, ive been trying to breed P. subfusca for years and only ever pulled of one eggsac.

P. subfusca is very hard to breed (for most people) respect to those that do.

If there are 2 forms take away the colour etc and show us all the taxonomical bits to show they are different.

Ray

[Steevens DROGUET]

I think that everybody must take a look at BEN's job here :

http://la-mygalopole.forumactif.com/vos-photos-f2/poecilotheria-subfusca-t2220-160.htm

Best whishes, Steevens

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

Hi Ray,

Thank you for your answer.
For one thing, I just really want to understand things, not at all spread rumours.

I must admit, before saying anything like "these 2 'so called forms' do not cross each other", there must be a lot of attempts, which is not the case for the time being. On the other hand, one single successful attempt is enough (counter-example). Is there any one known ? (here I guess what you can answer !)
I'll email you the people's names I was referring to in my previous message.

Be sure I pay great attention went people like you, Thomas F, Soren etc... are dealing with this (sensitive !) subject. When it's soon proved that 'subfusca forms' is a stupid mistake, then I'd happy of that ! As we say in France : "il n'y a que les imbéciles qui ne changent pas d'avis" > only silly people do not change their minds
However, I can find some morphological differences between the 2 'so called forms', such as carapace shape (see Ben's photos), but I am not a taxonomist.

Once more I am not saying there are 2 'forms', just want to understand things.
In the end, I'd like to add that, in this particular case, I think it's not a commercial affair : we could see subfusca prices drop these last months, with more successful breedings, and most sold specimens look like the so-called 'lowland form'.

Cheers,
Alex

PS : really sorry for bad english

[Nicola Dolby]

I have seen the pictures on the t-store and, although it might by my eyesight, I couldn't see the difference. We get minor alterations and colour morphs in the wild all the time, take for example the 'black' and 'brown' P. metallica variants. I could even say the same about my P. subfusca who since maturing has no purple, blue or any colour at all; she's just vivid black and white. I think that until we can firmly establish that the highland and lowland are definite variants of P. subfusca then we are making too much of this. Just my thoughts

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Steevens,

I cannot see any P. subfusca on that link??

Alex,

If it is proven to me that there are 2 forms then Ok I will believe there are 2 forms. But no one knows where this "lowland" form comes from in the first place, and the people who are suppsoed to know wont tell anyone (i wonder why?), as part of the Pokie book Andy Smith has examined hundreds of Poecilotheria specimens and he has never said anything about two forms. Maybe someone with deads of these "forms" can send them to me so i can ask Andy to look at them?????

its interesting that the people working taxonomically with Poecilotheria and the bigggest breeders, Thomas Froik, Soren, Henrik, arent claiming there are 2 forms??? But when they say there are 2 color forms from the same eggsac they are not believed????

For years P. subfusca was very hard to obtain and even then the price of spiderlings was only £20, not the stupidly inflated prices that some people charge nowadays, it was also very hard to breed as amles and females were out of cliamtic sinc with each other (and unrelated to each other), mainly because very few people would buy more than one spiderling at a time. either because of cash or avaliability (more the later).

Recently though (even with the high prices) people have been buying spiderlings in small groups where the spiderlings are reared to gether and bred together and lo and behold people are having more succsess at breeding them.

J M Verdez, without doupt the worlds best theraphosid breeder, has no problems breeding his, and his are not any known "variety " or "form". What are his comments on this?

So i ask the people who have these "forms" to come up with the proof, if they have something distinct then post up some solid evidance, and get some deads to me and ill ask Andy to look at them, (believe me if there is something different he will want it for the book).

Ray

[Steevens DROGUET]

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

Cheers Steevens for Ben's photos.
Ray, I emailed you.

Best regards,
Alex

[Eric Reynolds]

What is the sex of that "highland" form in the photos, a male? And the "lowland" a female?

The females I have from Jacobi's "highland" stock look exactly like the spider in those "lowland" pics.

its interesting that the people working taxonomically with Poecilotheria and the bigggest breeders, Thomas Froik, Soren, Henrik, arent claiming there are 2 forms??? But when they say there are 2 color forms from the same eggsac they are not believed????

Very good point Ray.

Eric

[Ray Gabriel]

Nice pics, i will look through my pics and see what i have.

Just Spoke to Andy Smith, He ahs been told about this lowland form, and when he asked for deads (even saying if it was a new species it would be named after them,) they refused to send any specimen.

Now then this offer still stands, if someone is willing to send a female and male of BOTH the highland and lowland forms, if they are a new species they will be named after the person who sends them. Cant say fairer than that can we?

Again he reiterated that of the 100s of specimens examined there is nothing taxonomically which can be said is a different species, take Bens pictures and take away all the colour so they are both a purple brown (like most alchohol specimens are) with nothing which shows very much of anything. (as the legs are all black on the underside well mostly).

How would you tell them apart?

That is the question, without colour how would you tell them apart?, is there enough differances which fall outside the normal range of variation within the species (taxonomically).

There have been light and dark forms in the hobby ever since they first came in, that is no secret, both comming from the same eggsac.

So here is one for all you supporters for a "lowland" form as no one knows where these were collected (and no one will tell so this species can be studied in the wild) is it possible, is it possible that the light form is adapting to captivity better than the darker form therefore becomming easier to breed?

Is it possible that this lowland form that people are asking for is nothing more than a captive adaptation?

If Mice (vertibrates) in a cold enviroment can have longer thicker coats in one generation then go back to being normal the next generation is it not possible that an invert cold do the same?????

The gauntlet is down, if this is the new species as some people (looking for something new?) are saying, supply the specimens, and its named after you.

Ray

[Steevens DROGUET]

What is the sex of that "highland" form in the photos, a male? And the "lowland" a female?

The females I have from Jacobi's "highland" stock look exactly like the spider in those "lowland" pics.

They all are females of course....
Do you think that french breeder are so bad to compares with different sex ????